Comments for: “Prayer War On The Hill: Hindu Invocation In Senate Reveals Religious Right Rancor”

The religious right revealed for what it is; an intolerant bigoted group who are shameless in their greed for religious dominion.

As a non-religious person, I would prefer that Congress not devote anytime to religious activities. Just doesn’t seem like an activity that is likely to do anything other than waste time. However, if they are going to worship on the taxpayers’ dime, they should allow any sect to participate. That would even include those who worship the Most Holy Reformed Gyrating Disco Elvis. A small sect to be sure but since there is NO ONE who has the right or wisdom to certify or deny the legitimacy of any religion, I say let Elvis’ followers gyrate their way into spiritual bliss on the Senate floor.

Perhaps next an atheist can give a lecture on the non-existance of God as his/her version of a prayer before the Senate. Some reason is definitly needed in Washington.

Today’s flare-up over prayer in the Senate is also a clear example of why neither chamber of Congress should be praying on the public’s dime in the first place.

So is it an actual goal of AU to end the practice of prayer at the beginning of legislative sessions? I’m a little unclear on your wording at that point.

“So is it an actual goal of AU to end the practice of prayer at the beginning of legislative sessions? I’m a little unclear on your wording at that point.”

It should be, because it’s a waste of taxpayer money. Let the Congress and House go to church and pray like the rest of us do. Plus, the people’s tax money should go to religious beliefs that they don’t support. But since the far right is so gung-ho about religion being in the public square, they’ll have to put up with the fact that ALL religions get representation, because the government is suppose to be neutral in these matters. However, they are still under the delusion that only Christianity is allowed a voice in the government and the public.

Chris, Hell will freeze over before a non-theist gets to speak in front of Congress. A fundamentalist Muslim will get that platform before a non-theist does.

The current Chaplain is a Seventh-Day Adventist - he is also the first African-American Chaplain too. His name is Barry Black.

Overall, every Chaplain has been of a Christian sect. If we are to continue this institution, maybe Congress should try and represent ALL the people it serves.

I know non-theists outnumber African-Americans, Hindus, and Seventh-Day Adventists in this country!

“Plus, the people’s tax money should go to religious beliefs that they don’t support.”

Shouldn’t. Don’t take cold medicine and try to type.

Sad, but all too predictable. Was anyone really surprised?

The “Christian Right” has always been about the institutionalization of bigotry, and not just the religious kind. Please try to remember that their first organizing centered around trying to defend racism and segregation. They only branched out into abortion and undermining public education later.

What just happened in the Senate was exactly what any thinking person knew would happen. And yes, it was disgusting…just not a surprise.

This is great. We need more and more of this. As the wall of separation between church and state is chipped away, those doing the chipping begin to show their true motivations. They’ve been willing to be ecumenical and sleep with the enemy in order to gain power, but true to form, when they gain power they want purity, not parity. As with the Vatican saying non-Catholic Christians aren’t real Christians, this just shows what we’ve known all along. We need far more of this, not less. They’ve already got a majority on the Supreme Court so we can’t stop them, so let’s let the excesses bloom in full! Once the average Joe gets stepped on, he won’t be so enthused with marriage of church and state.

What amazes me about the fundamentalists is their utter lack of
appreciation for their citizenship in a country in which the government
not only allows, but guarantees the right for them to practice their
religion. They can’t seem to fathom that America is a democracy
that allows the practice of Christianity, not a Christian nation that
allows the practice of democracy. If the U.S. was a Christian nation,
there would be no democracy.

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths anti-religious bigots will go to to purge religion. Just because the religious want to
express their faith and see it succeed doesn’t mean they are bigots. The true bigots are the religion-purging secularists who constantly want to outlaw religion.

Secularists don’t own the government. Some people don’t mind at all if some tax money goes to help religion. Only the extremists who whine constantly about any public display of faith are the ones who mind. It’s not only the secularists that pay taxes. I pay taxes, too. And I don’t mind at all if some money goes toward religion.

Some people take their faith seriously and want to express it. More power to them to not bow to religion-purging groups like AU and the ACLU.

I mean I really can’t see how the leftists can’t see how bigoted their take on religion is. Leftists are religion segregationists, constantly decreeing from on high when and where religion shall be allowed to exist.

You can have all the religious expression you want , the left says. As long as it isn’t in Congress, or in the public schools, or on the courthous lawn, or at the public park, or if it’s raining, or it’s on Tuesday, or if Aunt Edna comes over.

Why this country tolerates bigots like the secularists is beyond me.

I’m a Christian. I’ll proclaim my faith whenever and wherever I please. Whether the government is involved or not. If you don’t like it, kill me. Or sue me. Or jail me. Or whatever it is religion-purging bigots have to do to purge something they don’t like to hear.

“You’re a Christian” my eye.

Where’s your Galatians 5:22-23?

Take the warning of Matthew 7:21-23. Shape up or hit the road.

Guess I’m one of those religious bigots who can’t stand fundementalists who can’t stand anything that isn’t their twisted form of religion. What’s beyond me is why this country tolerates bigots like Joe Doe.

The hate continues:

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007....._offer.php

(A few sensible comments, but about 85% side with bigotry.)

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007.....els_hi.php

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007.....h_hind.php

At least now we know why they’re so terrified of hate crimes laws:

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007.....angers.php

Hate crimes laws directly endanger them.

Ah, here we go again…

JoeDoe,

Your arguement that some people don’t mind their tax money going to religion presents a problem. You and others who want to support religion still can. You can send however much money you want to any religious organization without being barred from it. The problem comes in is that not all people want to give money to religion. By avocating government taxes should go to religion, you are saying that people who don’t want to financially support religion will be forced to. You are not saying that people that want to help religion get to because they already can. Furthermore, would you want money going to the American Humanist Association (a group of non-theists) or a fundementalist Muslim mosque? If you don’t then how about following Jesus’s admonitishment to do unto others as you would have done unto you. If you don’t want to support the AHA or a muslim mosque don’t make other people support Chrsitian churches. Furthermore JoeDoe, you can proclaim your faith whenever, wherever you want to. You just can’t have government support your proclaimation any more than I can have government support me proclaiming a lack of faith. You can stand in a courthouse and proclaim yourself Christian (though if you disrupt procedding you might get thrown out) but you can’t have the courthouse then say that they are Christian too. That is what AU fights against. Government should not take sides on matters of faith, period.

What’s really sad about this entire thing is aside from obviously presenting themselves as bigoted, intolerant people, they’ve also exposed themselves as just plain ignorant. I quote from the AFA website:

“In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods,” the Christian historian explains. “And certainly that was never in the minds of those who did the Constitution, did the Declaration [of Independence] when they talked about Creator — that’s not one that fits here because we don’t know which creator we’re talking about within the Hindu religion.”

Talk about ignorance! I’m sure they meant Hinduism, but they fact that they so freely talk about it without referring to it correctly is probably not bolstering their case. Also, it’s laughable that a “Christian historian” is giving opinions of Hinduism. As for the creators of the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence when speaking of the Creator, I am only too happy to quote Thomas Jefferson:

But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

— Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Chris, Dave, and others …

In responding to JoeDoe, you’re trying to reason with a parrot.

His posts are the same repetitive phrasing ad nauseum, regardless of the issue covered in the blog.

Ignore him, please. Responding to his inane remarks only encourages him further and — in his eyes — elevates his “status” and gains him Brownie Points to the Hereafter as he Witnesses to his so-called “truth”.

Nice counter-punch on the NT quotes, though, David. I’d add the other admonition found in Matt 6:5-6, which also seems to have escaped him re “proclaiming his faith”.

Reason doesn’t work with a closed, willfully uninformed mind. Why waste any more effort with this sadly sanctimonious individual?

Points taken, Barry C. I shall ignore the troll from now on.

Staying on topic, this is exactly why we have separation of church and state — to prevent parrots and other assorted robotic inflictors of hatred from obtaining the political power needed to translate it into real crimes against humanity.

Barry,

I attempt to reason with JoeDoe mainly as practice for arguing against more rational opponents.

In response to the AFA saying we don’t know who the Hindu creator god is that is a load of crap. Yes Hinduism has multiple gods but they all spring from one god, Bramha. If the AFA had done ANY research on Hinduism they would know that Hinduism clearly states Bramha made the universe. Their statement is as ignorant as if I were to say that Christians believe Satan is a god and thus that religion is polytheistic. The Religious Right’s demeaning of intellectual inquiry and those who take part in it is sad. It seems that the Religious Rights wants everyone to stop using the device which brought our species to the top of the food chain: our brains.

Isn’t this the same AFA that boycotted target and other stores for using advertisement that said “happy holidays” instead of “merry Christmas”? The Religious right needs to GROW UP! Special privleges are NOT the same thing as rights, no matter what JoeDoe says. Someone I know once came up with the perfect analogy when she said that a religious right activist saying “it’s not enough just that I can practice my religion, you have to let me force public institutions to endorse it, otherwise you’re not respecting my rights” is like a smoker saying “it’s not enough just that I can smoke, you have to let me blow smoke in other people’s faces, otherwise you’re not respecting my rights”.

JoeDoe says “I pay taxes, too. And I don’t mind at all if some money goes toward religion.”

I understand that Mr. Doe is accepting of his tax money going to religious worship. Not surprisingly, he seems to be happy spending my money too. I don’t want it spent that way but it looks like he is willing to make that decision for me. I guess he knows my mind better than I do.

Also Mr Doe states “Or sue me. Or jail me. Or whatever it is religion-purging bigots have to do to purge something they don’t like to hear.”

Since is was religious-rightists who tried to squelch the Hindu prayer, I guess it was the religious-rightists who were attempting to “purge something they don’t like to hear.”

The stench of the hypocrisy of the Religious Right is unbearable.

The best way for the U.S. Senate to make the point that this type of behavior is unacceptable would be to do the following.

First, re-invite Hindu Chaplain Rajan Zed to come back and give another opening prayer, but this time make sure there is adequate security to keep these Christian loudmouths in check.

Next, for the next several sessions in a row, the U.S. Senate should further drive the message home that the actions of these individuals was unacceptable by inviting a Muslim Iman, a Baha’i, a Buddist, a Candomblian, a Jainist, a Jehovah’s Witness, a Jewish Rabbi, a Mormon, a Rastafarian, a Santerian, a Shinto, a Sikh, a Taoist, a Unitarian, a Wiccan, and a Zoroastrian (my apologies in case I missed anyone) to come and give an opening prayer.

Then, after everyone of these other world religions have had a chance to be recognized, the U.S. Senate should invite a prominent atheist to read these blowhards the First Amendment.

And finally, the U.S. Senate should fire the offical chaplain and put an end once and for all to this whole “opening the Senate business with a prayer” garbage, stick to the Constitution, stop playing the religious card to divide us, and start doing the people’s business in a responsible manner.

An excellent idea Tony!

And in addition (just to cover a few you didn’t mention) we’ll need a vodoo priest and a priest from the Church of Satan. That ought to give all the Religious Right leaders heart attacks and thus make AU’s job alot easier!

Amendment 1 - Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

The Amendment says nothing of keeping church and state separate. But it does say that Congress cannot establish one or stop you from exercising your religious beliefs whatever they may be. Yes some of “us” get a little emotional when it comes to seeing our beliefs trampled on when others get theirs polished and shined. I’ll say a prayer for you all. God Bless

“But it does say that Congress cannot establish one or stop you from exercising your religious beliefs whatever they may be.”

That IS keeping church and state separate, silly.

I personally sat in the Senate gallery, and watched the Hindu chaplain pray out loud, and watched three Christians arrested for praying out loud with him. If the Christians had said “Amen” to the Hindu prayer, or “Ooooohhhmmmm” in agreement with the Hindu prayer, they would not have been deemed “disruptive” and never have been arrested.

But since they prayed words to the effect of “Lord Jesus have mercy on our nation, and forgive us for allowing this idolatry, which is an abomination to you, and violates your First Commandment, we shall have no other gods before you, God forgive our sins, in Jesus name, Amen” their prayers were viewed as disruptive, instead of supportive.

They were arrested for the content of their speech, nothing more.

And isn’t it sad, that Senator Harry Reid and Senator Hillary Clinton both declined to allow equal access to a Pentecostal chaplain who prays “in Jesus name” at any time in the coming year?

Proof here:
http://www.christiannewswire.c.....33629.html

You liberals don’t want tolerance, you want Christians excluded and arrested for exercising their free speech. We never called for the Hindu chaplain to be arrested, but you applaud the government who punishes the Christians! Jesus have mercy on our nation, and on the members and supporters of AU.

In Jesus name,
Gordon James Klingenschmitt

You say look to Madison. Is Madison your savior? I think most of you are luke warm christians.. You should put JESUS first in your lives and then family and everything else works out..Do you believe in John 3:16 or do you except other ways to salvation. If you accept other ways such as hinduism then, You are not true christians and serving your master satan instead

Yes, Reverend barry lynn I would be happy to debate you anytime anywhere.

Gordon,

I understand that people were arrested for disruptive behavior such as shouting and wailing loudly.

DH,

Madison and Jefferson are more saviors than some mythical religious figure. They did more in their lifetimes to free humans from oppressive bonds than most religions have ever done. They were just men though not supernatural creatures. BTW, I am an atheist and have no desire to put Jesus in my life. And, I am perfectly happy without religion.

Gordon,

Do you remember what the people at the Capitol told you about the rules when going to the Senate gallery while the Senate is in session? I have been to that gallery and I distinctly remember being told not to disturb the Senate and don’t make loud noises. The arrested Christians broke the rules which they were certainly told before they went into the senate chamber. You wouldn’t feel sorry if a teen had come in and yelled “BONG HITS FOR JESUS” in the senate chamber and got arrested would you?

Gordon, DH, and JoeDoe,
Is your skewed view of reality deliberate, or do most religious fundamentalists possess an obfuscation gene?

Jeff B.

Anton quoted the theocrats: “In Hindu, you have not one God, but many, many, many, many, many gods,” the Christian historian explains. “And certainly that was never in the minds of those who did the Constitution, did the Declaration [of Independence] when they talked about Creator — that’s not one that fits here because we don’t know which creator we’re talking about within the Hindu religion.”

Funny thing - Jefferson, credited with writing the Declaration, certainly did seem to have the Hindus and other faiths on his mind at some point, as evidenced by this statement:

“Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm

Gordon falsely claims that “three Christians” were “arrested for praying out loud with him (Rajan Zed)”. They were NOT praying WITH him. They were deliberately disrupting a Senate function, not participating in a Hindu prayer. There’s no mistaking their intent.

Now, say, perhaps, on some Navy base somewhere, a sailor gets up during a Christian worship service and loudly starts proclaiming the primacy of Mohammed, extolling the virtues of Atheism, or denouncing the apostacy of the Pentecostal Christian chaplain (as opposed to the Pope’s “true church”). Would that chaplain politely oblige that sailor and let him continue? Or would we see that sailor given an Article 15 or brought before a Captain’s Mast? Think hard about this one….

The whole point is, prayer and religious observance are NOT legitimate functions of our government. To permit (and expressly encourage) only ONE sect to engage in such practices in the name of government is to expressly establish an official religion. If all philosophical viewpoints are NOT allowed to participate, that proves the bias in favor of the privileged sect.

Considering the Senate already has a Christian chaplain, and likely a glut of Christian preachers to choose from, Senators Reid and Clinton were right to turn away someone with a demonstrated past history of provocation and division.

Barry C.

Good advise. Thanks. Sadly, some people make it very easy to push their buttons. I will do my level best to just sit and laugh behind my hand without comment.

You people are monsters.
I hope the truly nice tolerant people of this country will at least one day see what true monsters the secularists are. And see them for the religion-hating lunatics they are.

What makes me so sick is that nice people have to pay taxes to fund your hatred of faith. Endless lawsuits to take religion out of life, endless taxes used to rape the consciences of nice Christian kids being force-fed secular science that violates their faith.

But you people just don’t care. And you never will.

You know, I hope the “religious right” runs over you like the roaches you are. You deserve it. And I’ll be darned if I don’t fight to the end of my life to defeat people like you.

It’s my taxes, too. And my country too. And I’m sick and tired of jerks like you telling me that just because I’m a Christian that I’m a bigot. I’m not.

You and yours purge religion. You do it because you are pompous, arrogant, ignorant religion-haters. And you do it using nice people’s tax dollars to do it. True tolerance has nothing to do with the secularist’s take on faith.

And I really don’t care if my post is on-topic or not.

Talk about hypocrisy. Which ways do you guys want it? Both ways it looks like. Do you want the Hindu to pray or not? You whine about Christian protesters but shouldn’t you be protesting too? I mean, if you don’t want one dime of taxpayer money going to support religion shouldn’t you be protesting the Hindu prayer made before Congress? And to be consistent, shouldn’t you be championing the First Amendment free speech rights of the Christian protesters?

(Isn’t it funny how that when liberals protest, we get these highly entertaining holier-than-thou speeches about “free speech,” but when conservatives do it , well, it’s just being rude and disruptive?)

Looks like the leftist rules change and leftist hypocrisy reigns supreme whenever the “religious right” shows
up.