Comments for: “Rain Man: Ga. Governor’s Prayer For Precipitation Flouts Founders’ Aims”

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Nothing. That’s why this whole episode is such a trifle to me. The people can pray or not pray; other can oppose the prayer or not oppose it; and it may or may not rain.

Praying for rain seems to me to be the lowest form of superstition. I wonder why he didn’t sacrafice a goat?

“That begs the question, though – what if it doesn’t rain?”

I remember once back when Barry Lynn was a frequent guest co-host on Patrick Buchanan’s radio show, he said “I believe in prayer. I believe in the efficacy of prayer.” Take it up with him, Lauren, and let us know how he answers your question.

I am a Georgia resident and have been doing my part to try to conserve the usage of water. I am thankful and proud of my govenor who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes. I think the majority of folks in my community and throughout this state would agree with what he did. God is in control of everything and is the only one we can depend upon for help in time of need.

Thank God there is a constitution and i might add has nothing about separation of church and state. We are a Christian country.
all the people who want to change that will use any and all means to do so, however, americans have religious freedoms, even governors.
The only thing a Politican cannot do is PROSELYTHIZE. They donot have to leave their religious beliefs on the doorstep. I have read the US constitution, no metion of separation of church and state, activist judges in 1947 made this unconstituonal judgement.

RE: I am thankful and proud of my governor who is not afraid to stand up for what he believes.

Joyce, there are a lot of people in Georgia with many different beliefs. The Governor is the Governor of all the people, not just those who believe in “the God of Rain and Thunder”. I don’t think he should be making such a display of himself. It is silly, and it is insulting to those Georgians who are intelligent and educated.

“activist judges in 1947 made this unconstituonal judgement.”

Or perhaps the writers of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison respectively, did it. TJ came up with the phrase when sending a letter to the Danbury Baptists and Madison endorsed the phrase. By the way, you do no that “right to privacy” and “system of checks and balances” are phrases that aren’t in the Constitution either. So by your logic, they don’t describe the Constitution. I’d like to see you argue that to any constitutional lawyer…or anyone who’s taken a high school civics class.

“We are a Christian country.”

Ok, first of all, what kind of Christian? Protestants? Catholics? Eastern Orthodox? Evangelical? Quaker? Unitarian? All have major differences and contradictory beliefs between each other. The only thing which you could be sure of linking all Christians together would be to say there is a God, and Jesus rocks (you couldn’t even say he was divine if you’re including all Christian groups, and you might not even be able to include prayer). So do you REALLY mean all Christians or just your kind of Christian.

Secondly, fit your idea that we’re a “Christian nation” with some of these quotes from Jefferson:

http://www.au.org/site/DocServ.....?docID=761

And here’s some from Madison:

http://www.au.org/site/DocServ.....?docID=141

You’re argument arises from RR revisionist history propaganda. Lucky, it seems that many people aren’t buying it.

This God of the Immaculate Dehydration is a skilled and adept deity with eons of experience and service. Everyone agrees that he precisely controls everything from imploding galaxies all the way down to a single falling sparrow. Hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis: whatever happens is his will. Is there some reason to believe that this god has gone senile and no longer knows what he is doing?

Anyway, the good people of Georgia should have sacrificed a chicken, everyone knows that this is much more efficacious in these circumstances. Prayers are ok for floods, incense for tornadoes, but whacking the head off of a chicken is the only thing for drought.

One letter to the editor asked us all “to pray for better leadership in Georgia”.

I’ll drink to that!

Well… It did rain… For everyone… With all the complaining about the prayer, do you think anyone who saw and felt that rain after so long, was not thankful regardless of where it came from?

Chris, they are 16 inches in the hole. They need 40 days and 40 nights. I’d say that drizzel is just God toying with them.

Alan,

You know, I once figured out the rate of rain required for the 40 days and 40 nights thing. The Bible says it covered the highest point of land (Genesis 8:9), so I figured that included Mt. Everest at 29,029 feet above sea level. So that works out to:

29,029 feet / 40 days = 725 feet per day

725 feet per day / 24 hours = 30 inches per hour

30 inches per hour / 60 minutes = .50 inches per minute

That should be enough to help Georgia. At 16 inches in the hole, they could make up the shortfall in a mere 32 minutes.

I wonder what the governor’s reaction would be if a shaman wanted to perform a rain-bringing ritual immediately after the governor’s prayer?

“Thank God there is a constitution and i might add has nothing about separation of church and state”

It’s in the First Amendment. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion…”

There it is. Easy to see.

” I have read the US constitution, no metion of separation of church and state, activist judges in 1947 made this unconstituonal judgement.”

You mean that Baptist Sunday school teacher from Alabama, Justice Hugo Black?

Don’t forget the Reynolds v. United States decision in 1878, where a very conservative Supreme Court opined that separation of church and state was nearly an “authoritative declaration” of the intended scope of the First Amendment.

Or President James K. Polk, who announced in his 1845 inaugural address that “no union exists between church and state.” The lack of any union is the existence of total separation.

If we go much farther back than that, we run into a guy named… Thomas Jefferson.

Or James Madison, who actually did an extensive job explaining it:
http://www.constitution.org/jm/17850620_remon.htm

Joyce wrote: “I think the majority of folks in my community and throughout this state would agree with what he did.”

Yes, Joyce, we know. The majority of folks in Georgia are superstitious. We know.

Steve wrote: “I remember once back when Barry Lynn was a frequent guest co-host on Patrick Buchanan’s radio show, he said “I believe in prayer. I believe in the efficacy of prayer.” Take it up with him, Lauren, and let us know how he answers your question.”
———————–

What’s your point? Barry never said that prayer works 100% of the time. And Lauren never said that prayer works 0% of the time. Barry, like most Christians, believes it’s a useful exercise and believes that his god answers all prayers; sometimes the answer is No. Lauren brought up the possibility that the answer in this case might be No. So where’s the contradiction, Steve?

Of course, whether prayer works is beside the point and thus probably not a point that should have been raised. The point is that a government official has no business asking citizens to engage in a religious ritual. That violates the Constitution’s required separation of church and state.

Besides, self-respecting small-government conservatives would never want Big Brother telling them how or when to pray. Are you a self-respecting conservative, Steve?

It is great to see so many people, believers and non believers, come together on such a website to express themselves. This is a great country. We can all agree to that.

I am a Christian living in Georgia and I’ll have to tell you that I did drop to my knees that morning to let God know that I know he has a plan and that I cannot wait for the rain to return to us. Some may call it “superstition” but I would have to say communication is just part of the personal relationship I have with God. Just so that you understand why I do this.

I understand the first amendment as to keep the government from forcing one religion on all its people. And from what I’ve seen in the middle east, this isn’t a bad idea. I do not believe our Governor was forcing his Christian beliefs on any one, but rather requesting that any one interested could be a part of this event. And any one uninterested does not have to participate.

Our Governor is exhausting all efforts to conserve our water, including a battle with Alabama, Florida, and The Army Corps of Engineers, who all want their share of Lake Lanier. With these kinds of odds against us, repentance and requisition to who we believe is the final say is the best and most comforting move we can make.

Maybe we are being punished for our misuse of resources or some other sin or maybe God has to put the land through this type of strain in order for it rebuild itself up stronger. I don’t know. Whatever it is I know he has it under control.

I hope this gives some insight into the Christian faith. I appreciate all the comments and insight given by all of you.

By the way it did rain last night. Very hard at times. We are still praying for more.

Stephen says

” I do not believe our Governor was forcing his Christian beliefs on any one, but rather requesting that any one interested could be a part of this event. And any one uninterested does not have to participate.”

I was and am a Jew, although now I am agnostic. Growing-up as a person in a religious minority, I was/am extremely sensitive to this issue. It always made me feel like a second class citizen when an elected official beseeched god with a Christian prayer in public, whether or not I participated. I also would have felt very uncomfortable had the official been Jewish and had used a “Jewish” prayer. The fact is, to avoid subjecting even one citizen from feeling inferior, the Governor should have done what his own faith advocates over such public displays of religiosity–lead by example and go pray in private or in church.

Hello, IT DID RAIN!!!!!!!!! so what do you have to say now?

Lauren, perhaps you could take a minute and clean your basement before you go attacking others. Read Item #4 in Your Policy for Commenting. Respecting the opinions of others. Not only do you not respect others opinions, you belittle them.

I know you don’t believe in prayer, but I will include you in mine.

Stephen wrote: “And any one uninterested does not have to participate.”
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The Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that requiring participation is a sufficient but not a necessary condition for something to be ruled a violation of the separation of church and state.

That’s why a public school teacher who asks “all interested students” to voluntarily join her in a prayer during class (while uninterested ones don’t have to participate) would be violating the Constitution. It’s still wrong because the government can’t promote religion.

That’s why school-sponsored prayers at public school graduations are unconstitutional even though saying those prayers is optional (and even attending the graduation is optional). It’s still wrong because the government can’t promote religion.

That’s why the government can’t declare Christianity the state religion even if those who aren’t interested don’t have to participate. It’s still wrong because the government can’t promote religion.

That’s why a governor can’t ask citizens to engage in a religious ritual, even if it’s voluntary. It’s still wrong because the government can’t promote religion.

Stephen wrote: “By the way it did rain last night. Very hard at times.”

That’s awesome! Hey, last night, my friend prayed that the sun would rise this morning. And it did!!!!! My friend caused the sun to rise!!!

We know this to be true because if A comes before B, then we know that A caused B. Right, Stephen?

Lee wrote: “Hello, IT DID RAIN!!!!!!!!! so what do you have to say now?
”

I have to say that there are a very large number of ignorant and superstitious people in this country. You’re one of them.

Actualyl the weather service was already predicting rain. The timing of the prayer couldn’t have been set up to take advantage of that of course, (sarcasim)

MATT:

Hello, IT DID RAIN!!!!!! so again, what do you have to say?

CHRIS: Regardless!

IT DID RAIN!!!!!! so again, what do you have to say?

Merry CHRISTmas,

GOD bless you,

JESUS is LORD

JESUS is GOD

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!!

gotta go! [and by the way,]…………. IT STILL RAIN!!!!!

Matt would have rather seen the drought continue than for a shower to coincide with a prayer.

Let’s see, so these people prayed for raid, when the weather service was already predicting rain. So of COURSE god had everything to do with it? Puhleeze.

Given all the empirical statistical studies on intercessory prayer, and the consistent results thereof, I would say the prayers did two things for sure: one, it made all the superstitious people feel better (no harm in that), and two, it made them look silly (hey, that’s their choice).

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Oh, were they praying for the insect problem, too?

RE: Lauren, perhaps you could take a minute and clean your basement before you go attacking others.

Scott, When a public official acts like a superstitious buffoon, he’s fair game.

RE: Lauren, perhaps you could take a minute and clean your basement before you go attacking others.

Scott, When a government official acts like a superstitious buffoon and puts on a public spectical, he’s fair game.

My bud Steve wrote: “Matt would have rather seen the drought continue than for a shower to coincide with a prayer.”

That’s not true. The coincidence (hey, good word for it, Steve! I’m proud of ya!) is meaningless to me. Coincidences are only meaningful for ignorant and superstitious yahoos.

Great article on the “effectiveness” of prayer (giggle):

http://www.slate.com/id/2139373/

Moment of silence, please! Let’s put on our thinking caps. If prayer really worked the way the Gov thinks it works, what would the world be like? Now, please consider, what is it actually like? Hummmmm.

Matt, that Slate article is good stuff. I certainly hope any of those disposed to thinking that prayer is a productive activity will follow the link.

I thought this was all settled years ago when The Doors released their Soft Parade album. The title song clearly states that “you can not petition the lord with prayer!”. In fact, Mr. Morrison repeats the line 3 times to drive the point home. All the money spent on research and all they really needed was a Doors album.

(My apologies to those too young to remember the Doors.)

Do you really think it makes you look responsible when you try to humiliate people for praying? I know you guys think you are so smart because you have studied church state issues for years. To me you seem very small because rather than just sharing information you have learned you try to insult and ridicule people. I know you think that because when you where 10 you prayed to God to have your parents get you this or that and he didnt so now his is not real and pray doesnt work. Well Ill tell you you are wrong. The thing is God doesnt step in until you are to limits as far as you can go. When you have been streched as far as you can go he steps in. That is how he is glorified. How do I know Ive been there. Does God answer pray ? You bet he does.

Matt,
Your a smart guy so I am going to ask for you help. I want to coin a phase to descibe your atitude toward religion so first I can come up with (Religious Bigot) but it sounds like you are religious . So how about (Bigot Religious) no that sounds dumb. OK ( Areligious bigot) What do you think?

Jonathan,

People have been making fun of ignorant and superstitious yahoos who pray for rain (and other stuff) for a long, long time.

Here is from The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn:

Then Miss Watson she took me in the closet and prayed, but nothing come of it. She told me to pray every day, and whatever I asked for I would get it. But it warn’t so. I tried it. Once I got a fish-line, but no hooks. It warn’t any good to me without hooks. I tried for the hooks three or four times, but somehow I couldn’t make it work. By and by, one day, I asked Miss Watson to try for me, but she said I was a fool. She never told me why, and I couldn’t make it out no way.

So, I guess Mark Twain was an areligious bigot also.( That’s from the beginning of chapter three. But I wouldn’t start or stop there – the whole book is required reading. Especially for the pious!)

Since superstition is, by definition, immune to logic, reasoning and rational means-ends analysis, the only thing that can be done is to make fun of it. When ignorant superstition is put on public display, its fair game.

Twain is a well-known country if you will, anyone can find him on the map but few take the time to travel there these days. I recommend all take the time to visit him. He had a lot to say then that remains relevant today. Such as:

“In God We Trust. I don´t believe it would sound any better if it were true.”

Mark Twain, “Letters from the Earth”

Jonathan, you stumbled into a minefield of issues with your last post.

#1 You may try and frame the debate by demanding respect for religion but it won’t work for me. No one is required to show deference to religion. We are free to despise it, loathe it, denigrate it and make light of it all day long. This is America not Jesusland. You may think there is something sacred about religion, I don’t. You are free to think there is, I am free to think there is not.

#2 The stench of religious hypocrisy is revolting. You lament that non-religious people “try to humiliate people for praying”. Give me a break! For how many centuries have religions tortured, oppressed, humiliated, slandered and vilified those who chose an alternate path? Religions still, to this day, mobilize their members to vote against extending natural and deserved rights to all citizens. The occasional wry critique coupled with a bit of sardonic humor is a minor peccadillo compared to the ongoing real life discriminatory practices of religions.

#3 Don’t be so sure you know anything about what anyone here did when they were 10 years old. Nice try but no cigar.

#4 You say that God steps in when people are at their physical and mental limit. Try a pediatric cancer ward for a while and come back and tell me that. Tell that to parents who have just lost their child to a painful and lingering death. Your statement, while quaint and certainly of greeting card quality, fails the test of scrutiny.

#5 You are free to say and believe that your god answers prayers. You can say it all day long but the one thing you can’t do is provide any empirical evidence of such.

#6 You say you have been to the limits of “as far as you can go” and that religion is needed to survive such difficult times. Jonathan, with a few exceptions I suppose, we have all been there. Some of us do it without religion quite nicely thank you.

Scott says: “Not only do you not respect others opinions, you belittle them.”

What in that article belittled opinion? There’s a significant difference between opinion and religious doctrine. Opinion involves thinking.

Jonathan says: “I know you think that because when you where 10 you prayed to God to have your parents get you this or that and he didnt so now his is not real and pray doesnt work.”

I guess you must have gotten that Red RIder BB Gun, just like the kid in A Christmas Story, and that just clinched it for you, eh? Red Rider BB Gun = proof of god’s existence.

Open your mind, Jonathan. People don’t believe in your god or your particular religion for any number of reasons. Maybe seeing all the hypocrisy that some christians display is one of them, and that’s just a start.

J says: >
“Oh, were they praying for the insect problem, too?”

Obviously referring to the pests demanding that everyone pray.

Only Sky:

“#5 You are free to say and believe that your god answers prayers. You can say it all day long but the one thing you can’t do is provide any empirical evidence of such.”

Isn’t “NO” 100% of the time an answer? ;^)

But cripes, you nailed everything right on the head.

To Matt and anyone interested.
I can tell you know what you are talking about. I see what you are saying about the rulings by Supreme Court. It is true that prayer can no longer be offered in school. This is the difference however, between a believer and non believer…our points of view and our interpretation of the first amendment.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion”. When I read this first part of the amendment, I understand it to say exactly what I think it says. There will be no LAW written to promote or support or mandate any one religion by the U.S. government. There are too many people who believe in too many different religions or don’t believe in anything. Freedom means its their choice and we can’t force someone to God. And God does not want me, a Christian, to force someone to him. Without freewill there is no love and understanding(another insight into the Christian faith).

This is why I support groups like the American Center for Law and Justice. They fight for believers like me in these court rooms, ran by some of what I can only believe to be activist judges. And some day a different judge will be in that court room and will overturn this ruling in favor of prayer in schools and so on. In other words I don’t agree with the interpretation of this amendment by this Judge. I put my trust in the written words of our forefathers in the Constitution. They are deliberate and literal, not symbolic or loose.

To ask you to pray if you want, by a teacher or government official is not forcing you by law to pray to God or at all. If a Jewish teacher asks my class to pray I am going to pray but it will be in Jesus’ name. If a Muslim teacher wants to have a moment to pray, then I once again will pray too my God not his. And for all of you who might not care for prayer, you don’t do anything or maybe you would use the time to study or meditate-I don’t know.

I hope this can make you understand that Christians don’t have a need or desire to be the Federal, State, or Local religion but rather the chosen faith of every person of this world. This can only be done by our freedom to worship and express. So when we Christians go to court it is only to stop others from taking away our freedoms and not to force others to accept our beliefs.

Well I am tired and don’t even have the strength to spell check. I don’t get to this site everyday but I will check back. Thanks for your time and the respect most of you have shown. God bless you all.

By the way as far as the comments some folks made about the rain and prayer - I cannot expect nonbelievers to understand prayer. It’s not that it is complicated its just that the faith comes first. It’s like asking me to buy carbon offsets when I don’t even believe in global warming. I hope didn’t just start another debate but I think you get the picture.
Goodnight.

Stephen, please re-read your post when you have the chance, and explain how you expect to fulfill your “need” to have christianity be the chosen faith of everyone in the world, without being the official state religion? How long are you willing to wait to avoid the use of force? Isn’t time running out?

You sound very much like an RR person who believes that the US should prepare for the second coming by creating a christian government. You express the need to maintain your freedom to worship as you please…so you can eventually deny that right to everyone else.

You’ve also opened the same can of worms that’s been opened before: which version of Christianity should the world embrace? Christians have been unable to agree on the practice and even meaning of Christianity from the start, and often killing each other as a result. After 2000 years, you still haven’t been able to come to agreement. Those of us outside of your faith have doubts about it for good reason, mainly attributable to the actions - either individual or church sanctioned - of christians themselves. If you really feel the need for Christianity to be the religion of the world, you’ll need to get your collective act together first.

Stephen wrote: “So when we Christians go to court it is only to stop others from taking away our freedoms and not to force others to accept our beliefs.”

I don’t agree with that at all. The demonstrated aim of the ACLJ and most of its clients is to instill Christianity into government as the officially recognized and enforced religion to the exclusion of all others, and impose it into the lives of all non-Christians, while masquerading as an organization dedicated to religious freedom. They do not give atheists or non-Christians equal time or representation, if any at all.

Unfortunately for our nation and Constitution, we now have a conservative cabal of five “activist judges” on the Supreme Court, two of whom reject the Establishment Clause outright.

So forgive me for dismissing your whining about your freedoms being taken away when your like-minded believers are actually putting mine in jeopardy.

The point has probably already been made, but this joke of using the fact it rained as proof of anything, goes to show that these RR wingnuts don’t care whether or not anything changes.

First, for all we know, it was completely staged. Considering the moral depravity of the leadership of the right, and the religious reich, it wouldn’t come as any great shock.

Second, the amount of rain that fell wasn’t enough to do anything to reverse the effects of the drought.

So, was the Governor really just asking for some rain as proof that God exists? Or was the Governor asking for relief from the drought? The former is was at best a crap shoot, and given the severity of the drought, proof of a rather limited God. Which also answers the second point, and rather pointedly would suggest anything other than a compassionate god. More like the infanticidal, genocidal, war-mongering god that the Hebrews believed in.

Gee, it did rain. It accomplished nothing at all. So apparently the good christians in Georgia aren’t so good. This must be punishment from God, like the recent typhoon and Christmas time earthquake several years ago were reported as being among the RR towards the ungodly of those regions.

To borrow the RR parlance, it seems like time for the godly in Georgia to get on their knees and do some repentance.

Unless of course, this is really proof of an off kilter climate and has nothing to do with any non-existent god. But of course the RR nuts would never consider anyhting like that….

Again to the critics: IT STILL RAINED!!!!! regardless whether the weather man forcast it. IT RAIN!!!!

Gee, Lee, your right! That never happened before! With a miricle like that to his credit, I guess the Gov is now up for sainthood!

Hmmm. God listens to the Governor when HE prays for rain, but didn’t listen to the area farmers and ranchers, who were probably praying for rain for a long time now?

Lee, the following is from an AP story on that rain event:

“The Wednesday storm packed lashing rain and powerful gusts, injuring at least nine in Tennessee. The roof of a Baptist church in Tennessee’s Marion County was heavily damaged, said Jeremy Heidt of the Tennessee Emergency Management Agency. Three children were hurt by flying glass and were taken to hospitals”
——

So, tell us, Lee. Did your god damage the church roof and injure the children, too? Inquiring minds want to know.

Sky,
RE You may try and frame the debate by demanding respect for religion but it won’t work for me.
REP rule 4 below Please try to post responsibly, respecting the opinions of others. The commenting forum is intended for the exchange of relevant insights and discussion, and should be used as such.
RE The stench of religious hypocrisy is revolting.
REP I am just 34
RE Try a pediatric cancer ward for a while and come back and tell me that. Tell that to parents who have just lost their child to a painful and lingering death. Your statement, while quaint and certainly of greeting card quality, fails the test of scrutiny.
REP Bad things happen to good people and it is terrible. God is still there to help them through it. How do you explian a room full of amish school girls being killed for no reason and the parents coming and forgiving the killer? How do you explian Jesus dieing on a cross? Go to those Hospitials and see how many of those children dont believe there is a God. Just because evil exsist does not mean God doesnt.

Lee? Hello?

[knocks on monitor]

Anyone seen Lee?

Yes, thank you Jax. I figured that statement would scare some folks, but it isn’t what you think. When I say “chosen faith of every person”, I mean the personal choice of every person who hears the Gospel. In other words, some one hears about Jesus, accepts it and lives the life as an ambassador of Christ. I’m not talking about running for office and then putting my beliefs into Law. I hoped that the rest of the context I wrote would have made this more clear. Not everyone will choose to accept Christ as their Saviour, but if I am a true Christian and I believe that Jesus is the only way to heaven then I am going to spread this word to every one, just as Jesus would want. The invitation to salvation is extended by Christ to everyone. He wants salvation for all. This is why we do what we do.

I feel that sometimes when people, such as yourself, hear this, it makes them cringe. I want to tell you and everyone else that is your choice and it does not hurt my feelings to hear you reject it. I am not offended by this. It is when people disrespect my belief that I must stand and fight. Just like you and every other rational person would. Don’t be angry when some one simply tells you what he or she believes as truth, even if you don’t understand it. I am a man who has not always been a Christian, so I know how cynical and defensive life can make us. If you truly believe what you say you do then let it rest your soul as my belief does mine.

I don’t blame you for having doubts about Christianity when you see people doing and saying things that are obviously not out of love or completely against the laws of God and then calling themselves a Christian. I can’t explain such things except to say that we all still live in this world and sometimes this world can make people feel desperate. A Christian should never feel desperate about anything except reaching out to others. People may not be consistent but the word of God that is the center of it all, is. We make mistakes and we must ask forgiveness when we do. I am not going to try to excuse any action of any Christian who has been a poor witness but I know living through God’s word changes a man for better. Also remember this; not everyone that calls himself a Christian actually is.

I believe in the second coming. With all do respect, according to what you are saying about creating a Christian government and denying others their rights, I don’t think you know enough about the Christian view of this. I don’t know where you heard these things but they are not true. Anyway, this is a whole other discussion not relevant to this one. Thank you though for bringing up some good points.

Lowell. I’m not sure you know much about the ACLJ or anything that it does. Where is your proof of this underlying conspiracy. Sounds like the interpretation of some one who has it in for God based organizations seeing as how you are certainly not a fan.

Look I’m not going to change your mind tonight and your not going to change mine. Happy Thanksgiving to everyone and God bless you. I probably won’t be back on this particular issue. Thank you for the discussion.

Well (look who’s sleepless tonight), I have heard the ACLJ’s Jay Sekulow, in one sentence, rail against “content-based censorship” — and in the *very next sentence*, blatantly announce his ambition to ban pornography and instruct communities how to do it.

He rails against content-based censorship, and immediately proceeds to announce his intention to impose content-based censorship.

He’s like a Louis Farrakhan. In the same manner that Farrakhan will use liberal politicians and civil rights law to advance a personal goal that is very illiberal and hostile to civil rights, Sekulow will *talk* a good game of freedom, and use the system as it stands when it benefits him.

But his goals are highly antithetical to the Constitutional system that he currently (and very selectively) uses to his short-term benefit. Trust me, Pat Robertson wouldn’t support, endorse, and promote and organization that had anything less than a TOTAL contempt for freedom outside the high prison walls of his religious constraints.

“”J says: >
“Oh, were they praying for the insect problem, too?”
Obviously referring to the pests demanding that everyone pray.”"

No, referring the post above that one that begins, “Let’s see, these people prayed for RAID…”

Evidently one cannot use the to enclose a quote or all one will get is ‘>’.

Stephen wrote: “So when we Christians go to court it is only to stop others from taking away our freedoms . . .”

No, you go to court to push your religion on others. You can’t provide a single example of the government taking away your religious freedoms.

Your problem (and the other Steve’s problem) is that you think you should be able to do anything you want any time you want. Bzzzt!!! Wrong answer. There are limitations on ALL rights. Can’t yell fire in a movie theater. And public school teachers (or any government officials) can’t try to convert 5-year-olds to Christianity while performing their taxpayer-funded duties.

Just because you can point to a time/place limitation doesn’t mean a right has been “taken away.” Yell fire all you like, just not in a movie theater. Pray and prosyletize all you like, but don’t expect the government to help. The Constitution prevents the government from helping you to pray and prosyletize, but that doesn’t mean you can’t pray and prosyletize.

Be a big boy and realize that you’ll have to perform your Great Commission without help from Big Brother.

RE: Anyone seen Lee?

Matt, don’t encourage him.

J says:

“”J says: >
“Oh, were they praying for the insect problem, too?”
Obviously referring to the pests demanding that everyone pray.””

No, referring the post above that one that begins, “Let’s see, these people prayed for RAID…”

Evidently one cannot use the to enclose a quote or all one will get is ‘>’.

Perhaps a misunderstanding here… Because I certainly would use RAID on pests…. I’ll try to be a little more clear next time.

It’s obvious that it is bound to rain any time their is an overwhelming 10% to 20% chance of rain.