Comments for: “Say You Want A Resolution?: Some Suggestions For The Religious Right In 2008”

A great list! Every item is a winner; I can’t choose which one I like the best.

What would I add? Read up on science,take it seriously, and stop pretending the Bible is a high school science textbook.

And stop using the words “Christian” and “American” as if they were synonyms.

And stop using the words “Christian” and “liberal” as if they were antonyms.

And I’d ask them to reflect on their own theology a little more:

When I was an evangelical, I believed that coerced obedience to God’s ways was no more valuable in God’s eyes than a coerced conversion to Christ would be salvific. The underlying theme of the entire New Testament is what goes on in the heart, moreso than “good behavior” that results from fear rather than will and a love of God.

That’s one thing that Anabaptists ( http://www.anabaptists.org ), particularly the Amish, appreciate.

These are fundamentalist Christians that *really get it*. They’re opposed to political coercion, because they really grasp that genuine, redeeming love for God needs no coercion.

David, Alan, those are wonderful suggestions. I’d add the suggestion that they start looking at themselves and their own behavior, and stop obsessing about what is none of their business.

A great way to close out our year of Christmas craziness. We had people fighting over religious and anti-religious displays on government property, battles over the relative heights of menorahs and Christmas trees, and even a fistfight over what holiday greetings are acceptable on a subway.

Sheesh!

Isn’t it funny this web site makes a comment about keeping Christian values out of public schools but it is the Quran that my children are having shoved down them at public school now. The way of the Shaman was brought home from my children’s public school. It seems OK to shove all these pagan religions down my children’s throat but I am not to speak out about my own beliefs in public school. Why is that? I am getting sick and tired of being kicked in the teeth because I believe in Jesus Christ and the God he represents.

Dan,
You illustrate the whole point exactly. Now you know precisely how many other people feel when they have Christianity jammed down their children’s throats. It’s high time some people find themselves in a minority for a change so they can understand why we have Separation in the first place. The shoe is finally on the other foot. It’s not correct to impose anyone’s religion on our kids in a public school. I do think there is value to teaching children religious literature from an historical only perspective though.

Jax, I’m with you. It’s the busy body collaborative factor that makes it much easier for me to reject organized religion. The Radical Religious Right,and the idea of submitting all free will and thought to a bunch of domineering hypocritical bigots in exchange for a promised glorious afterlife is simply ludicrous. It resembles nothing of what I understand in regard to the founding of this country, nor the intent of the founders.

David, with all due respect, Anabaptists make me as leery as Baptists, as Evangelicals,etc, etc, etc…

Jay Parker, excellent comment. My sentiments exactly!!

Dan, I am sick of hearing about the persecution of Christians because they can’t force their views on all others. My guess would be that you have an elementary age student who wasn’t taught the Koran at all, but was taught about Ramadan. Did that get your panties all in a ruffle? Amen! it is time for you to learn, like your children, respect. Respect for those who have beliefs, (which really mean nothing because they’re simply beliefs!)that differ from your own.

So all of you don’t think that the Christians are being persecuted, had I bowed down to Allah, no one would have had any comment at all about my belief, however because I am a Christian it brings strife and badgering of my belief. Why is it that my children are not bringing home the holy bible along with the Quran? I would not have any problem with the public school system teaching about Islam or what ever else as long as they added the Christian belief along with it, but they don’t. By the way, Like Thomas Jefferson, I do have a Quran in my home along with the book of Morman and have taken the time to educate myself on the two religions and several others. This is why I know that the Christian belief is the truth about God. Just because people refuse to believe does not mean it is not the truth. I do not need to push my faith in God on to others, I just need to live my life according to the Holy Bible. And if by doing so convicts others of the lives they may be living so be it.

I noticed that you spell the Quran with a “K” had you taken the time to educate your self with the actual book you would realize that My spelling is correct well almost, it is actually spelled Qur-an. It is reffered to as The Holy Qur-an. It is read from the right to the left which makes it confusing when translated in to english because it apears that the book is wrote backwards. each page is read from the left to the right, but you start in the back of the book and proceed to the front. Mohamad was unable to read and write himself so he had scribes write the book. Mohamad was a brutal military leader, which brings up a lot of his beliefs in eliminating the infidel. The writings of the Quran have very little historical facts to back up the belief that is wrote.
Joseph smith, the founder of the Morman belief now called the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Joseph believed that Jesus actually came to America after he ascended to Heaven and taught the message of the bible to the natives. This in itself is not necessarily wrong, I have not studied the native American religion to get an understanding of what really happened but one thing is for certain the book of Morman does not go along with the Holy Bible and there is no historical facts that back it up, this is why I can not believe any of the book of Morman, (including that Jesus descended back to earth in America) because if some is not right can any of it be believed? By reading the Holy Bible, you can actually go back and use historical facts that back up the readings of the Holy Bible.
Once again, I am not trying to push my beliefs on any one, just put out the facts and allow the readers to make up their own mind. I would like to say this one more time, “Just because you do not believe in Jesus Christ and the God he represents doesn’t mean it is not the truth”. I urge you to pick up the Holy Bible and read it cover to cover. (Not to pick up my beliefs, but to educate your self on the words in the Bible.) Then make up your mind on an unbiased educated decision.

RE: Why is it that my children are not bringing home the holy bible along with the Quran?

Huh? Where do you live? Saudi Arabia?

Dan,
Thanks for that long post. (And it’s spelled “Mormon”).What’s wrong with studying the world’s religions in class (either to learn about the different ways they celebrate holy days) or, in the case of Islam, getting some insight into the cultures of the 2 nations this country is at war with right now. Either way, it’s ‘current events’.
Oddly, your argument that your child is being persecuted by being exposed to other religious texts seems to contradict your own study of comparative religions. What’s the difference?
Is your child being forced to worship in another faith, or being told that Islam contains the ‘ultimate truth’?
There’s a big difference between studying religions, and religious indoctrination.

In the movie “Jesus Camp”, Becky Fischer, the Pentecostal Evangelical youth minister profiled in the movie, makes a clear comparison to her tactics and to the tactics of an Islamic Fundamentalist madrassa. Her justification? “WE have the truth!!”

You seem like a thoughtful man. Do your child a favor. Don’t teach him/her to fear knowledge. And the only people ‘persecuting’ Christians in this country are right wing fundies. They’re doing an outstanding job of smearing the image of Christian faith as a narrow, bigoted, culture of fear and victimhood.

Dan Brent is playing the victim role to the tee — exactly as foretold by Rob’s article.

Are you sure you’re not role-playing just to be funny? Good gawd, you have the ENTIRE AM radio spectrum to yourselves, not to mention entire TV stations.

We have friggin’ ZERO. And YOU’RE persecuted???

Anyhow:

“Just because you do not believe in Jesus Christ and the God he represents doesn’t mean it is not the truth”. I urge you to pick up the Holy Bible and read it cover to cover. (Not to pick up my beliefs, but to educate your self on the words in the Bible.) Then make up your mind on an unbiased educated decision.”

I’m a former evangelical Christian. I’ve read it from cover to cover. I’ve debated with pastors on their own level. I can walk into any electronic forum, pose as a fundamentalist Christian, and nobody would be able to tell that I wasn’t.

This blog probably isn’t the appropriate place for a debate (click my name for a better one) — but I can give you lots of devastating problems with the Bible.

Debating people’s faith normally isn’t my style, but since you seem to be hankering for an explanation, I’ll be glad to oblige…

“”That’s one thing that Anabaptists http://www.anabaptists.org ), particularly the Amish, appreciate.

These are fundamentalist Christians that *really get it*. They’re opposed to political coercion, because they really grasp that genuine, redeeming love for God needs no coercion.”"

So the ones that “really get it” are the ones that take their kids out of school after the 8th grade (generally before a comprehensive study of ‘evolution’), that assign specific roles based on gender, and that silence young people of their communities who sample the outside world and go to a movie or a dance? Okay, got you.

Dan Brent,

re: “This is why I know that the Christian belief is the truth about God.”

I am going to let the others pick you apart on the majority of your points, there is a bounty of items to contest in your posts. I decided to limit myself to pointing out to you that in your above quote you are abusing the English language. In fact, you know no such thing. You believe it, but you do not know it. I only bring up this point because I see it as a substantial issue. When people treat their faith as a fact and not as a personal system of beliefs, only troublesome dogmatic authoritarianism can arise. It almost makes sense in a perverse way, if someone thinks they “know” what God wants, why not pass a few laws to protect the infidels from themselves? Your statement that you “know” the truth of xtianity is quite in error. You believe it, you don’t “know” it. You are, of course, free to believe anything you like; the Loch Ness Monster, Ancient Astronauts, Jesus, Cold Fusion, etc. You are even free to believe you “know” Jesus on a first name basis. Just please be aware that your use of that word certainly does not meet any commonly accepted definition and quite clearly, the word “know” is not interchangeable with “believe”.

Here’s another concept we could all apply more often to our personal opinions…

“I speak for myself”.

“I believe that the bible is inerrant and the source of all truth.”
“Atheism is the only school of thought that makes sense to me”.
“The Flying Spaghetti Monster is God. Nothing else makes any sense to me.”
“For myself, Hinduism answers all of life’s questions.”
“Taoism is a wonderful philosophy. It answered a lot of questions for me.”

You get the idea. It’s exactly what the Declaration of Independence means when it says “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”.

Above, I made another post elsewhere about the curious condition that fundamentalists have (in that case it was a teacher who tried teaching intelligent design) of confusing belief and knowledge. She used the 2 words interchangeably.

Our secular government can’t (because of the Constitution) get in the way of anyone’s freedom to believe anything they want. It also can’t institutionalize anyone’s beliefs by making them civil laws that affect all citizens.
Anyone who can’t accept that fact, and insists that all of America conform to their own system of faith, should probably start looking for another home.

In my own personal opinion, of course.

J - “So the ones that “really get it” are the ones that take their kids out of school after the 8th grade”

Keep trying to be obtuse on purpose, O desperate one. You know damb well what I’m getting at.

Do as you usually do — nitpick on some red-herring bits of trivia when our main points blow you to bits.

Got you, intellectual coward.

J, the Anabaptists get it because they actually practice what they preach. I don’t have to agree with their beliefs to see that they are not hypocrits, like the Religious Reich.

Dan, it seems like you are confused about some things that have already been noted - knowledge versus belief, religious indoctrination versus the teaching of sociology, world cultures and/or current events. You also seem to have decided upon historical accuracy as a criteria by which to judge religious texts. Perhaps you should investigate the historical accuracy of your own religious text. An in-depth study of unbiased scholarship on this topic should be very enlightening to you.

I just love that old expression “people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”. It’s so applicable to today’s RR.

Not to pick petty pious bones with you, Dan, but you don’t have the market cornered on being the “all wise one.”

Spelling Koran with a K has nothing to do with education, knowledge, or lack of either. Either spelling is correct.

Would you like some catsup or ketchup with your burger?

transliteration

I’d still be willing to wager that this was not a comparative religion class, but was your “persecuted Christian” hype about your young child being educated about Ramadan. (This since the “holy” days just passed, and it has become quite common for schools to briefly address all of the “holy days” not just those of the Christians. Did the hand-out on Kwanzaa/Kwaanza bother you as well?)

Dan Brent,
You said,
“I do have a Quran in my home along with the book of Morman and have taken the time to educate myself on the two religions and several others. This is why I know that the Christian belief is the truth about God.”
Lest I perish of curiosity, what evidence did you find to chose one book of myths over the other two?

Dale, you might want to think twice before encouraging someone like Dan Brent to defend his ludicrous statements. It bores me to tears to find such defenses usually take the form of lengthy quotes from the Bible accompanied with all the ususal time-worn and fully debunked Christian apologetics.

I like coming here and reading the comments to find a fresh exchange of ideas relevant to AU’s purposes. If I want Bible quotes and apologetics I know where to find them elsewhere. The Dan Brents of this world outnumber us freethinkers about nine-to-one; we’re a distinct minority in this country, and if any group ought to have a persecution complex it’s us. But I daresay we generally have no such complex, and that’s because we’re not afraid of entertaining new thoughts and ideas. Dan Brent offers none.

That said, however, it’s still difficult for me resist the temptation myself, so here goes: Dan Brent said “I would like to say this one more time, “Just because you do not believe in Jesus Christ and the God he represents doesn’t mean it is not the truth”.” True, Dan. But neither is it the case that just because you happen to believe something is true makes it so. I think it is much wiser policy to decide the viability of truth-claims based on their demonstrable veracity and verifiability in an empirical and objective manner. In this vein, Christian belief systems, along with every other supernaturalist claim, fail miserably, and that’s a primary reason I reject them.

Forrest,
I stand admonished!

In fact, I am cognizant that there is nothing we can do to change “their” minds.
I’ve seen it written by an author that he (can’t remember who, just now) sees it as Heroic when someone who had been conditioned since childhood to finally look at their beliefs and challenge them in an intellectually honest manner, and I agree, but it does happen.

Point taken!

“Get over the martyr complex”. I love this article…

http://www.onenewsnow.com/2007.....stians.php

“American Christians absolutely not prepared for persecution”. Duh.

Over at Ed Braynton’s blog “Dispatches from the culture wars”, there’s a great response…

“Amen. I always envision a meeting of the Persecuted Club in heaven. During the introductions:

Stephen: I was stoned to death and am Christianity’s first martyr.

Sudanese Christian: I was hacked to pieces with machetes for refusing to renounce my faith.

American Christian: I was told to move my website to a private server.”

Perspective is always such a good thing.

^^^Correction^^^

That’s Ed Brayton’s blog.

Gag me with a spoon, but I can top that:

From the “Christian Anti-Defamation Commission”
http://www.christianadc.org/pa.....e_id=23302

Unbelievable whiny crybabies. They dish it out 24/7 across the entire AM radio spectrum, in theor own exclusive radio and TV networks, and in many newspapers’ editorial pages. USA Today and AOL give place to Dinesh D’Souza, who hates us so intensely that he actually apologizes for Al Qaeda.

But they sure can’t handle it when we — after 15+ years of such mindless hate — start to answer back.

“Christian Bashing”. Unbelievable.

The irony here, is that any group who screams loudly enough that they are under attack, will most likely find that they eventually come “under attack” from people who just want them to shut up and go away and be left in peace. It’s bait, but I’m not going to take it. These people will (are) eventually going to hang themselves in the public eye.

I’ll have to be contrary here…

dan brent is right to be leery. If the school system is trying to indoctrinate his children, he should demand that they stop and take legal action if necessary. (Of course I don’t know if that is actually the case.)

And it sounds like AU would be a natural ally to turn to.

Dave C,
I agree. Unfortunately, Dan has given no other explanation for his outrage other than “they want my kid to open the cover!” of the Quran. No other context is mentioned, and there would need to be for a case of unconstitutional “religious indoctrination” to be valid.

Hey, there’s nothing wrong with keeping us fair and honest. I recently made the same effort with the feet-washing thing. Y’all managed to convince me — which means that you did have your facts straight after all.

We’re just so accustomed to hear “Christian persecution” at the slightest pretext that we’re quick to assume that the next similar claim is a crying-of-wolf as well.

I’m inclined to believe that this is just a harmless case of educating kids *about* other religious and cultural approaches to the holiday season. But maybe, just maybe, Dan Brent has a legitimate complaint.

If so, it’s a legitimate complaint indeed — but it’s still not a case of “persecuting Christians.”

All this martyrdom is just one more example of the RR throwing a temper tantrum over some imaginary denial of rights, akin to the “War on Christmas”. They entertain the belief that they deserve some kind of special status in this country. When faced with the fact that their rights extend no further than that of any other American, it’s hissy fit time.

As for the CAD, they begin their list of “attacks” on Christians with the CO shootings in the US, perpetrated by a young man that had been kicked out of missionary school, after having been raised by what was called a devout Christian family. That’s a screwed up kid, not persecution. Don’t they realize how pathetic these attempts at sympathy really are?

‘As for the CAD, they begin their list of “attacks” on Christians with the CO shootings in the US, perpetrated by a young man that had been kicked out of missionary school, after having been raised by what was called a devout Christian family. That’s a screwed up kid, not persecution. Don’t they realize how pathetic these attempts at sympathy really are?’

This is not only outrageous, but extremely sad as well. This kid was one of their own. He was clearly mentally unstable, and never received the help he needed. Then, after the tragic shooting incident, he was completely disowned and thrown on the “secular humanist atheist culture” demonization pile. Pathetic.

Yes, I suppose in all due fairness, we should ask Dan to explain what actually occurred before accusing him of crying “persecution/wolf.”

Maybe I was presumptuous to read his reference to “the way of the Shamen,” followed by the “stuffing of the Qu-ran” and then “to shove all these pagan religions down my children’s throat” as his simply being bitter and angry that the public schools do take these months of Nov and Dec to teach a bit on cultural diversity and respect, as there are so many big holy days. Perhaps I mistakenly detected derision in his rant - an anger that his children would be exposed to “false” teachings that might make them learn to respect other belief systems, or worse, to question their own.

Please, Dan, tell us more. Certainly, if your children are being indoctrinated by the public schools, AU could probably help put a stop to that unconstitutional behavior.

My daugter’s social studies class did breif units on Buddhism, Judaism and Islam. No problem. They did not have to particpate in any actual religious activity other than read what these religions are about. I’d also have not problem with the same being done for Christianaity. Dan might be flying off the handle for nothing. I’m reluctant to give him the benefit of the doubt.

While I am open minded, Dan needs to provide more evidence of unconstitutional behavior. Dan indicated that at least two religions were being studied. I doubt that a course that includes a survey of religions needs to include Christianity in order to be constitutional.

To Dan-
Have you tried emailing or asking to speak with the teacher in question? Be polite and civil. See what s/he has to say.