Comments for: “Crossing The Line: Religious Right Activists Plump For Politics In The Pulpit”

This is kind of off the topic - but I wanted to thank AU for being vocal on the national Day of Prayer, and the corresponding “Task Force.”

It should be know to all that the Dobsons’ underlying goal is indeed “forced” task! Only Christians need apply in accomplishing the goal.

Aw, c’mon! How are all the fundie sheeple supposed to know how to vote if their pastors can’t tell them who to vote for? That’s putting way too much pressure on the individual. What if they cast their vote for a candidate the church deems unacceptable?
Jeez, why does the church assume their members are incapable of making decisions, and why do the sheeple go along with the church’s assumption? Guess that’s why they are called “sheeple”

This looks like another RR attempt to make martyrs for their cause. Pastor X is stupid enough to follow their advice and break the law, so Pastor X becomes a martyr, thus “proving” the victimization of Christians in America.

If enough of them do it, however, they probably won’t look like martyrs. They’ll probably look like just what they are: defiant church leaders who have no respect for the laws of this country or for its citizens.

Elizabeth D, you said it before I could!

It’s actually kind of sad that these FRC folks think that all Christians should be concerned about is abortion, stem cells, gays, and 10 commandments monuments.

Do they actually think that nobody in the congregation is concerned about Iraq war, the collapsing economy, the housing/credit crisis, international terrorism, health care, education, poverty, genocide in Darfur, or any other pressing issues?

Dave C - Honestly, it amazes me how and why so many fundies are actually relieved to have someone else think for them. If the church says (fill in the blank) it must be so. If the church says all those issues in your second paragraph are “the work of the devil”, well the church should know what they are talking about.
Not having to research the ballot issues and form an opinion frees up a lot of time for…….hmmmmmm what does a fundie do with their free time? I’m sure the church will tell them.

“How are all the fundie sheeple supposed to know how to vote if their pastors can’t tell them who to vote for? That’s putting way too much pressure on the individual.”

Yes, I suppose it is. And how are organized workers supposed to know who to vote for if their unions don’t tell them? That was a sickening court ruling in Califonria when the high court said they can continue to run a closed shop, extracting union dues and donating them to candidates for public offices. In the words of Jefferson, “To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves, is sinful and tyrranical.”

But that wouldn’t matter to AU or most or the leftists here, even– or especially– if support for predominantly Democrats who are for abortion, same sex marraige, et al, are involuntarily taken from the labor of those whose [religious] opinions are opposed, making it, according to Jefferson, sinful and tyrranical.

Good Jefferson quote! I will have to remember to use that one the next time some RR outfit tries to defend school prayer, some 10 commandments monument, some voucher school scheme, or any other establishment of religion.

J, according to you then, Bush is “sinful and tyrranical” for using my tax dollars to fund his faith-based initiatives. Always knew he was a crook!

Maybe so… but is it “sinful and tyrranical” for unions to force dues from closed-shop workers and propogate the opinions of political candidates they oppose? And beyond that, doesn’t union support for partisan causes “hurt” organized labor, as this site claims it “harms religion” for churches to be involved in partisan campaigns? Or is that just an excuse to claim AU does not oppose religion?

J,

You are right about the whole union dues thing, which requires an obligatory “So What!”. A union is a private organization. The government, in spite of the RR’s attempt to make it a religious service guild, is not.

Joining a union is voluntary, paying taxes is not.

““So What!”. A union is a private organization… Joining a union is voluntary, paying taxes is not.”

It’s as “voluntary” as attending one’s high school graduation, in a closed-shop state or industry. You get the comparison, I’m sure.

RE: What if they cast their vote for a candidate the church deems unacceptable?

Why a big lighting bolt comes from the blue and disintegrates them! Right in the voting both. Happens all the time down south. The congregation tends to chalk it up to rapture, though so the lesson is lost on them.

J, Good Jefferson quote - not only that but referring to Jefferson by his full name and not adding some sort of obscene adjective - a real first for you!

Sky - Thanks, exactly what I was going to say.
J - No I don’t get the comparison. I’ve never heard of being forced to attend one’s high school graduation.
Alan - Thank you for clearing that one up for me! Might be worth a trip to the south just to watch that happen!

J, your Jefferson quote doesn’t work in the context in which you used it, since no one is “compelled” to join a labor union. I think Jefferson was talking about the use of taxpayer money.

The Jefferson quote is a magical quote. It disappears when the topic is state funding of churches. It magically reappears when the issue is union dues. Proof positive of the invisible hand.

Someday I’ll live in a country where the government worries about bigger things than what preachers might be saying on Sunday morning.

J, great to know that you decided “Tommy’s” Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was worth your time to read, but as Daniel and Sky pointed out, Mr. Jefferson was referring to tax payer money going to fund churches.

Didn’t it hurt your brain to expand your “issues” to include the union? You managed to throw everything into the stew: leftists, Democrats, AU contributors, pro-choicers, those who are not in opposition to equal rights for gays, etc.

My goodness. All that bile in one post.

“No I don’t get the comparison. I’ve never heard of being forced to attend one’s high school graduation.”

In what little time I had tonight I found the Kennedy quote from Lee v. Weisman: “(the) Constitution forbids the State to exact religious conformity from a student as the price of attending her own high school graduation.” That’s approaching a quote I was looking for about graduaton being such a ‘once in a lifetime’ event that it is “virtually mandatory” to attend.

But that’s even less obligatory to operating a closed-shop, where a prerequisite to employment is to join the union. In your scope, you are saying one doesn’t have to work for a living, or can try landscaping or something; just to get the good local jobs will require union membership, and membership will require ‘furnishing money for the propogation of opinions one disbelieves.’

If you don’t like graduation, including a prayer or a little ‘message’ by the val, then you don’t have to attend… and you don’t have to work for the only good pay and benefits available. That’s the comparison.

Lee v. Weisman was hardly about a “little message by the val.”

and you’re trying to compare apples and oranges.

“But that’s even less obligatory to operating a closed-shop, where a prerequisite to employment is to join the union. In your scope, you are saying one doesn’t have to work for a living,”…

No, J, I’m saying that one doesn’t have to work for a living at a job where “a prerequisite to employment is to join the union”.

“or can try landscaping or something;…”

So a landscaper is not someone who works for a living? That certainly is what you (J) seem to imply here.

“…just to get the good local jobs will require union membership,”

There are no “good local jobs” that do not require union membership?

Also, going back to your other example, the only way in which attendance at a high school graduation could be reasonably seen as “mandatory” is if one could not receive their diploma if one did not attend such an event. Thankfully, this is never the case.

J - didn’t you share a story b4 about why you did not attend graduation?

Not to be without empathy,but seriously it would be time to maybe take the chip off your shoulder. It can’t possibly be helping you at this stage of your life…if your story was real.

I had to leave so didn’t comment on the union thing. Unions are totally different than churches. Their entire purpose is to protect workers from the very real threat of exploitation by employers. Sadly, politicians have often been complicit in such exploitation. Therefore, it serves the purpose of the Union to endorse candidates.

(If you doubt that these unions do any good, compare the # of deaths of miners per year in the US versus that of anti-union China.)

Churches have no such history. Nobody has been exploiting them in the US.

Should every voluntary organization be treated the same under tax law? I see no reason why this should be the case.

“It just seems to me that the messages are somehow not reaching the congregations,” Folger said. “Is it the pastors that need to speak more clearly? What’s the answer?”

Maybe Folger is right. Perhaps those people in the pews really are so dense that they haven’t realized their “church” is an arm of the Republican party.

An even scarier explanation for Folger would be that those innocent looking people in the pews are - gasp - having independent thoughts. They might even be reading newspapers. Critical thinking may be going on right under the noses of their pastors! And these rebellious thinkers might even share their opinions and rationale with other church members. I can see why Folger is so desperately concerned.

Even worse still, perhaps many pastors are choosing to reject the politicization of their faith.

As a pastor, it is my job to preach God’s word to my congregation. Issues such as abortion, same sex marriage, homosexual life style, and pornography are moral issues and will always be legitimate subjects for me to preach on. It is my obligation and I took an oath to do so. No one can stop me or any other preacher from doing the will of God.
We will not be silent!

Oh, by no means is anyone telling you to be silent, Gary Z. Move past it. We’re telling you that if you want to accept govt funds to keep your church afloat, follow the rules of not telling your congregation for whom to vote.

Plain and simple.

If you want to politically preach, keep your hands out of the govt coffer. Can’t have it both ways, friend.

We know the guidelines.

Sure, many know the guidelines and choose to ignore the law, anyway. Something about a “higher law.”

I call it cake and eating it, too.

A church or pastor is free to state the position of a candidate on any issue
and may comment on that position (including praising or criticizing the
candidate for it).
That is NOT ignoring the law.
And yes we do answer to a “higher law”.
What’s the use of having your cake if you can’t eat it?

Well, in this instance Gary Z., the cake is govt money, public tax dollars, so you’re certainly free to eat it, as long as you wish swallow the “lower authorities” guidelines.

The problem, as I see it, is that too many churches and pastors feel bullied into not speaking out at all. More of them need to know that they are free to state the positions of candidates on any issues. They should be passing this info along to their congregations. It is their duty.
The pulpit is no place to show weakness.
Know your rights and stand up for what is right. We are not in this position to please man anyway.

“They may not intervene in partisan races that involve candidates by taking actions that endorse or oppose anyone seeking public office.”

As you can read, the topic of this thread is the frustration that FRC is feeling because they feel that pastors are not “getting through” to their congregations. It seems clear that FRC would like clergy to be able to flat out tell their congregations WHO to VOTE FOR.

Also Pastor Gary, are you afraid by simply discussing the social issues that concern you, your congregants won’t “get it?” Can they not think for themselves? Can they pay attention to elections, and the races running up to the elections, so that they cannot judge for themselves where candidates stand, and then use their own “inner guide” to make decisions?

Or is that contradictory to organized religion?

Our job, Albatross, is to guide our congregations. We do not think for them.
There is nothing wrong with speaking out on the candidates issues. No one is going to tell them who to vote for. There is no frustration. As I told you, we KNOW the guidelines.

Gary Z says: “The problem, as I see it, is that too many churches and pastors feel bullied into not speaking out at all.”

Or some learn from the mistakes of their predecessors, as in the case of Brady Boyd who took over for the disgraced Ted Haggard, who was highly political in his preaching.

As pastors,this should be our motto. “Know your limits and take them to the hilt. Do not be afraid and don’t ever back down. Our reward is NOT here on earth.”

Here is AU’s guide to the tax laws of preaching:
http://www.au.org/site/News2?a....._ctrl=2422

Forward it to your fellow pastors. Make sure they get information about tax law from reliable sources. Pastors have a large degree of freedom to say a LOT about policital issues. The tax code is really not very inhibiting.

It is ashame that some political outfits will mislead pastors into jeopardizing the financial health of churches. Be careful who you trust.

Gary Z says: “We know the guidelines.”

But do you follow the law? Do you show respect for your country and your fellow citizens by obeying the law?

jax says:

But do you follow the law? Do you show respect for your country and your fellow citizens by obeying the law?

That doesn’t even deserve a comment.

Gary Z. says: That doesn’t even deserve a comment.

Why not? Twice you’ve said “we know the guidelines”, but you never actually said that you follow them and the law.

From the article:
She concluded by wondering what would happen if a bunch of pastors would openly “cross the legal line” and added, “I think sometimes we need to do it anyway, to obey a higher authority than the one that represents our government. When the two are at odds, it’s God we obey, much like Daniel.”

Apparently Folger thinks disrespecting the law – and thereby one’s fellow citizens – may be necessary. Do you agree?

Jax,
Rest assured that, as a Christians, our faith and our following lies with God. We will always obey the law. God calls us to do that. God also is very clear that if the law goes against Him, He is the one to be obeyed. As I said before, God will be the one judging me not man. My reward is not on this earth.

“J, great to know that you decided “Tommy’s” Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom was worth your time to read,”

Oh yes; wasn’t that just wonderful of me?

“…but as Daniel and Sky pointed out, Mr. Jefferson was referring to tax payer money going to fund churches.”

I’m going by what Tommy himself said. Besides, again, that this concerns a closed-shop practice is relevant, where the employer deducts unions dues just like taxes, and a worker has no choice but to stay a member and pay dues in order to stay employed.

“Didn’t it hurt your brain to expand your “issues” to include the union?”

No; or at least my brain did not process that impulse simultaneously.

“My goodness.”

I sure didn’t know you had any of that.

“and you’re trying to compare apples and oranges.”

Oranges are better by themselves, but apples make a better pie.

“So a landscaper is not someone who works for a living? That certainly is what you (J) seem to imply here.”

If you go to landscaping because you refuse to join the union, and thus cannot get the good job with good benefits, you do work for a living, but you are penalized because of your beliefs. [I once worked as a parttime bookeeper for a small landscaping firm, and inconsistent seasonal nature and client difficulties make it very unlucrative.] One group which will not join unions are our old pals, the Jehovah’s Witnesses (they are forbidden from joining any organization other than their own).

“There are no “good local jobs” that do not require union membership?”

That’s a quite likely situation in a closed-shop state.

“J - didn’t you share a story b4 about why you did not attend graduation?”

Yes, but my reasons were quite different from church/state issues.

J said: “My goodness. I sure didn’t know you had any of that.”

A case of the pot calling the kettle black.

“If you want to politically preach, keep your hands out of the govt coffer. ”

Just a thought: based on the recently revealed comments of Rev. Jeremiah Wright from the pulpit, is Trinity UCC in Chicago under any type of investigation?

Obviously, that church has no connection to the RR. But it sure seems to have stepped over the line (or climbed over “The Wall”).

Gary Z says: “Rest assured that, as a Christians, our faith and our following lies with God. We will always obey the law. God calls us to do that. God also is very clear that if the law goes against Him, He is the one to be obeyed. As I said before, God will be the one judging me not man. My reward is not on this earth.”

Your reward may not be on this earth, but punishment may be if you break man’s laws. I also wonder what effect a pastor breaking the law might have on her or his congregation. It might set a bad example. Parishioners may feel that they, too, are entitled to break any law that they think is against their faith. We’ve seen the sad outcome of those types of situations. I hope we don’t see more as a result of misconduct among American clergy.

Jax says:
Your reward may not be on this earth, but punishment may be if you break man’s laws. I also wonder what effect a pastor breaking the law might have on her or his congregation. It might set a bad example. Parishioners may feel that they, too, are entitled to break any law that they think is against their faith. We’ve seen the sad outcome of those types of situations. I hope we don’t see more as a result of misconduct among American clergy.

You guys just don’t get. Then again I really didn’t expect you to.
Our faith CANNOT be shaken!!!!!!!!

Jax says:
Your reward may not be on this earth, but punishment may be if you break man’s laws. I also wonder what effect a pastor breaking the law might have on her or his congregation. It might set a bad example. Parishioners may feel that they, too, are entitled to break any law that they think is against their faith. We’ve seen the sad outcome of those types of situations. I hope we don’t see more as a result of misconduct among American clergy.

You guys just don’t get it. Although I reaklly don’t expect you to..

Jax, You guys just don’t get it.

“Jax, You guys just don’t get it”.

What is this “it” that Jax doesn’t “get”, Gary Z?

Hey Gary, if you follow the law, great. The IRS won’t need to investigate you then. Win-win for everyone.

Thanks for writing. Take care.

Matt #1

My rash comment earlier about church-goers was over the top. I was mostly annoyed by Folger’s assumption that the only possible reason why their church members would vote differently is because they simply haven’t heard the message. Hence, the sarcasm.

Gary Z: By all means, speak out on important issues. There is nothing wrong with that. A pastor should do that from time to time. People in the pews should take such advice seriously.

But I am cynical. Here’s why.
I just read a Rolling Stone story about a Christian camp that engages in brainwashing.

http://www.rollingstone.com/po.....puke/print

At one point, they all engage in demonic exorcism and expel the demon of… philosophy. So I don’t expect these people to have much independent thought after that, unless they reject what they “learned.” I hope this vile practice is very uncommon. But I fear that many people involved in the RR undergo such brainwashing.

PS Gary Z, I hope you are careful in your sermon on homosexuals. Demonizing a group of people is not a moral thing to do.

Dave C,
Christians do not “demonize” anything. Jesus tells us to love one another. When we preach on issues like homosexuality, the person himself is not condemned nor judged by us, only God can be the judge. We are, however, judging the sin. The bible is clear tha homosexuality is sin. Jesus loves the sinner but hates the sin. So it it with us.
I won’t make excuses for, nor judge other pastors either. That’s not my job. None of us are perfect. We sin just like everyone else. If any of us say that we don’t , they call Jesus a liar. I can’t do that.
We are pastors and preachers. That’s what God called us to do. No matter what the circumstance, God called us to speak the truth. He is the ultimate judge and jury. So, when we say that we would go against a law of man if it is against what God says, you need to know that He will expect no less from us. God is the one that ALL of us will finally answer to. I don’t want to find myself having to explain to Him why I chose to disobey him. That’s not brainwashing it is biblical truth. The bible, not man, has the final say.

Gary Z, I’m sure you don’t get it. There have been several nut cases out there who have taken the law into their own hands based on their own interpretation of biblical law. If you break the law, you will be setting an example to your congregation that it is okay to break to any law they interpret as being anti-biblical.

How does a pastor speaking on political views to his congregation in an attempt to offer some guidance differ from organizations like ‘Americans United for Separation of Church and State’ using their influence to push their agenda?

Jax,
I don’t know how else to say this so that you will understand.
The bible says to obey GOD, there is only one way to interpret that. If a man made law contradicts the law of God. God wins, period. It’s not that hard to understand. As Christian pastors and congregations, we will NOT have a problem obeying God’s word.
Atleast we should’nt. It’s what we’re supposed to do. No matter what man thinks. Man doesn’t matter in this case and God knows it. He is our final judge. Not you or anyone else.
Hope that helps you understand. If it does’nt, dig into the bible and look for yourself. Don’t just take my word for it.
God said it, not me.

after every thing has been said,501’s , to me,are indeed a law resticting free speech.
jax, sorry i didn’t ans. yore question on the last tread. was outta town for awhile. punch it up when i got home ,didn’t seemed like there much interest.
Pastor Z. good job

Jax, what Gary Z doesn’t understand is that a) this country was not founded on his interpretation of the bible, and b)when he says “dig into the bible” he doesn’t accept the fact that to a lot of us the bible is nothing more than bad literature. He apparently is of the mindset of the people I grew up around “God said it, I believe it, that settles it.” They even had bumper stickers. Can’t begin to reason with those folks.

Elizabeth,
Just so that you understand as well. This country was founded on biblical interpretation. Not my interpretation. As I concluded in my last post, the words are not mine, they are God’s. I take no credit for them. Nor do any others of us in your category of “Religious Right”. For us to take credit for God’s words would be blasphemy, pure and simple. God is clear about that. The bible speaks for itself. You need to be open to IT’S interpretation.
My bumper sticker would read “God said it, go read it for yourself”
He wants you to.

Gary Z. THIS COUNTRY WAS NOT FOUNDED IN ANY WAY ON BIBLICAL PRINCIPALS.
BTW, I’m one of the people who considers your bible to be nothing more than bad literature.

Elizabeth,
You have every right to feel that way.
However, that does not make it TRUTH.
This country WAS founded on biblical principles whether you believe it or not.
I also have to thank you for confirming my suspicions. It is not the church that you want to separate from. It is actually the truth that scares you. That’s what you want to separate from.
If you will open your heart to what God is saying to you you will see that you do not need to be afraid.
I challenge you to try it.

Gary, you can think whatever YOU want, but it doesn’t make your beliefs true.
Truth has never frightened me. Closed minded people like you who want to push their beliefs on other people, that is offensive.
Yes, it is the christian church that I have separated from, because of people like you.
I have no need or desire to “open my heart” to your God. I had my fill of people like you when I was young.
I challenge you to think outside the little box you have imprisoned yourself in. There’s a whole big wonderful world out there just waiting to be discovered.
I’m not going to continue this argument with you. Not only would it be futile and a complete waste of my time, but I’ve always felt it’s bad form to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is so obviously unarmed.

Elizabeth,
Ouch!!!That was harsh.
Again, the words aren’t mine!!!!!
The bible speaks for itself!!!!
Blessings to you.

Gary, thank you for your posts. It is encouraging seeing someone firmly standing for their beliefs.

God bless

Gary, you’re under the mistaken impression that there is One True (TM) interpretation of the Bible. There are hundreds of Christian denominations, who disagree on issues ranging from the trivial to vital (e.g., there are millions of pro-choice Christians and millions of anti-choice Christians — and they all use the same Bible).

That you think YOU interpret the Bible perfectly and everyone else gets it wrong demonstrates a profound arrogance on your part.

People like you who think they have a monopoly on Truth and who want to foist their version of biblical interpretation on everyone else are a danger to religious freedom.

Matt,
There IS only one true God and One true interpretation!!
I have never been an advocate of denominations. It is very much against biblical principle. In fact that is where all the trouble stems from. I say take religion out of the equation. It doesn’t belong there. God never meant it to.
When you take religion out of the mix interpretation becomes very simple.
God never meant for this to be a mystery.
Blessings

Bart,
Thank you.
Blessings to you as well!!!!

Actually Pastor Gary said “dig into the bible and look for yourself. Don’t just take my word for it.”. Nothing in that statement implies anyone has a “monopoly on Truth”.

I also have to agree with Pastor Gary that this country was founded on the basis of religion. That was the whole reason for this countries beginning. They were escaping a country whose government ruled the church, and came here to worship freely. The first Amendment only puts restrictions on the government not the church. “Congress shall pass no law”. If you look at the founding fathers almost all of them were Christians. Check out the web site.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/F.....igion.html

Bart, are we going to re-hash this all over again?
The founding fathers, for the most, were NOT Christian. They were Deists.
Matt, are you starting to think that maybe Gary and Ronald were cabin buddies at Jesus Camp?

Gary wrote: There IS only one true God and One true interpretation!!

And, lucky you, that One True Interpretation (TM) just happens to be YOUR personal interpretation!! And all those other folks are wrong!! And they think THEY have the One True Interpretation (TM) and that YOU’RE wrong!!! What fun!! What stupidity.

Like I said, people like you who think they have a monopoly on Truth and who want to foist their personal version of biblical interpretation on everyone else are a danger to religious freedom.

Matt #1

Elizabeth, where do you get your information? Here is some statistics I found.

Episcopalian/Anglican 54.7%
Presbyterian 18.6%
Congregationalist 16.8%

Alternative #2 wrote: They were escaping a country whose government ruled the church, and came here to worship freely.

Umm, Bart? The Pilgrims were in Holland for a few years between England and America. They had plenty of religious freedom in Holland. But they were dirt poor. They came to America for mostly economic reasons. They wanted to be prosperous (true Americans!).

As far as “worshipping freely,” yeah, THEY wanted to worship freely. But they had no interest in letting Quakers or Jews worship freely. They instituted a represseive theocracy.

Luckily, the founding fathers learned from those mistakes and instituted a secular government based on secular ideas. That’s why you don’t find the words “God,” “Jesus,” “Christ,” or “Christian” anywhere in the Constitution. Plenty of opportunity to do so. They deliberately chose not to.

Matt,
You really need to get a grip.
I said that the interpretation was NOT mine.
Read the bible and see for yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!
The interpretation is God’s not mine!!!!!!
The interpretation is God’s not mine!!!!!!
The interpretation is God’s not mine!!!!!!

There, do you understand now???

Matt, Thank You!
How do you suppose Gary would react if I decided my God (or Goddess) was the one true deity and he was wrong?
Bart, you can find statistics to back up pretty much anything. We just went over this whole subject on a recent article. If I have the time and energy today I will find it for you. Or you could look for it yourself. In the meantime, go to http://www.williamedelen.com go to columns, then click on February 2007, and read Founding Presidents Not Christian.

Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of OUR LORD one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.

Alternative #2 wrote: If you look at the founding fathers almost all of them were Christians.

Who cares? It’s irrelevant what their religion, race, height, or weight was. What matters is what they wrote in the Constitution.

Yes, many of the founding fathers were religious. And they wrote a secular Constitution that required a separation of church and state because they knew, from European history and earlier American history, that combining the two was a bad idea. There is no contradiction here.

Matt #1

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their CREATOR with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of DEVINE PROVIDENCE , we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

No, Gary, you don’t get it. Your interpretation of the Bible is YOUR interpretation of the Bible. And Rev. Barry Lynn’s interpretation of the Bible is HIS interpretation.

Please stop pretending that you know exactly what your alleged god thinks. Your arrogance is astonishing.

Matt #1

Those were taken from the Constitution and Declaration of Independance.

Know your facts!!!!!!

Matt, you are grasping now!!!!
It is TRUTH not Arrogance.
Again I say, READ IT YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!

I’m picturing Gary Z lying on the floor kicking his feet, pounding his fists, screaming I’M RIGHT I’M RIGHT I’M RIGHT EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

Elizabeth, you have quite the imagination.
Because I am grounded in MY faith, I do not need to lie on the floor kicking my feet, pounding my fists, screaming I’M RIGHT I’M RIGHT I’M RIGHT EVERYBODY ELSE IS WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

But that’s exactly what you’re doing, Gary.

You’re insufferably arrogant. Isn’t arrogance a sin, Gary?

It is TRUTH not Arrogance.
Again I say, open YOUR bible and READ IT YOURSELF!!!!!!!!!!

Matt,
Stop listening to everyone else and prove it to yourself!!!!
Get a bible, sit down and read it!!!
Then talk.
Blessings

Gary, I agree with Matt, you are insufferably arrogant.
For those of us who consider your bible to be nothing more than bad literature reading it from cover to cover would be an enormous waste of time. Besides, most of us have read it, and that’s how we came to the conclusion that it is nothing more than bad literature.

This is why I like AU. We can all have our religious opinions and we can argue about those differences in whatever manner we like. And often we have little respect for each other’s beliefs.

But at the end of the day, we all work together, are often friends, are all equal under the law, and live together without killing each other. None of us are made second class citizens (or worse) because of our beliefs.

Let’s keep it that way. Go AU!

Elizabeth,
It is called FAITH not arrogance.
There is a HUGE difference.

Gary, the thought of heaven being populated by people like you really takes away a lot of the appeal. I believe in a much kinder approach to faith. Like Titania has said many times, I’m tired of people “shoving their dogma up my karma”. And to once again quote my brother Tim, “everyone is entitled to their own stupid half-assed opinion”.

Elizabeth,
I would NEVER deny you Yours.
Have a great life.

I have read most of the Bible myself over the years and know enough about it to be certain that it was written by fallible human beings, and while it might just happen to have some good things in it, it is, at the very best, fallible just like anything else that has ever been written, and displays human fallibility and human prejudice just like anything else ever written.

Mike,
The bible Was written by humans , but it was INSPIRED by God.
Boy this is alot like groundhog day.

ALL words were God breathed.

Gary Z says: “The bible Was written by humans , but it was INSPIRED by God.”

As you believe. Your believing it does not make it true.

Gary Z says: “ALL words were God breathed.”

Again as you believe; your believing it does not make it true.

Why do many of the people who post on this site lose site of the conversation/debate and start with the name calling? What does that have to do with religious rights? Calling me “alternative #2” (stupid), and Gary “arrogant”, then taking your unfounded claim to say “Isn’t arrogance a sin”. Sin is between you and God, not for me or you to judge.

Gary Z says: “The bible says to obey GOD, there is only one way to interpret that. If a man made law contradicts the law of God.”

What if your interpretation is wrong? What if someone in your congregation wrongly assumes that a man made law contradicts the “law of God” and takes the law into their own hands? That’s the kind of situation I’m talking about. You don’t seem to have considered the fact that you and your congregation are human and prone to make mistakes.

The men who flew 2 jets into the World Trade Center were sure that their god was the only god and that taking the law into their own hands by killing over 3000 Americans was deity-approved. Many believe them to have been gravely mistaken.

Bart, are you just angry that your arguments have been shown to be, yes, stupid? That’s not our fault. If you make false or illogical claims on this blog, you WILL be corrected. Get used to it or hit the road.

Matt #1

“As you believe. Your believing it does not make it true.”

As AU believes on the constitution, or anyting else, does not make it true.

When it comes to religion, everyone thinks they’re right. But I know that I’m the one who is *really* right. (only half in jest)

Plenty of people, many extremely intelligent, have read and studied the bible. They have not all agreed on how to interpret it. I don’t expect consensus to arise soon.

Gary Z,

You quote the Declaration. I am wondering why you think Jefferson used the word ‘creator’ rather than ‘god.’ Any ideas about that?

Gary, your repetitious posts with the addition of caps, indeed, make you appear like a toddler having a tantrum. Do you think internet shouting will make your opinion more valid?

Another interesting thing about Jefferson (besides using the word creator instead of simply naming the obvious God - (sarcasm)) was his tendency to randomly capitalize words. Sometimes Lord is capitalized, sometimes not, same with god. It’s interesting to try and understand his thinking, but Good Lord! using Jefferson of all the presidents we’ve ever had, as some kind of proof of “Christian Nation” intent” is just one of the most hysterical things I’ve ever seen. Use of the term “In the year of our lord…” hardly solidifies your position.

Gary, get out a history book that wasn’t written by a Christian revisionist.

Gary Z,

I do not mean to gang up on you or to accuse you of wrongdoing. We are both Christians and should stick together. That doesn’t mean that we are likely to agree on everything. I’ll add you and your congregation to the my prayer list.

No Matt, I am not angry. It would take a lot more than a debate on a website to anger me. Correct me if I am wrong, and I know you will, you probably think I am a very narrow minded uneducated follower of my church, and anything the pastor says I just take as the truth. Am I right? That is not the case, I do a lot of reading and research for myself, and I develop my own opinions about life. So tell me how you came to the conclusion that what you know is absolutely true? Do you believe in a God, Creator, or intelligent designer, or are you just advocating for the government to run their affairs without ever consulting a higher authority?

Dave C says: “When it comes to religion, everyone thinks they’re right. But I know that I’m the one who is *really* right. (only half in jest)”

Dave C, I have to disagree, although I appreciate the humor! Please exclude me from “everyone” in this case. I only think that my beliefs are right for me. I think that your beliefs are right for you, and the same goes for everyone else. I have no interest in convincing anyone else that my beliefs about religion are right. But I’m passionate about protecting my right and the rights of others to pursue the path of personal choice.

Dave C,
Bart,
Please don’t think that you or anyone else is ganging up on me and forgive me if this sounds harsh. I didn’t accept this calling to make friends. No pastor does. My job is to preach the truth, as “arrogant” as that may seem. No man intimidates me. I have a biblical fear of God only( I don’t expect all of you to understand that, so don’t worry). My faith in God and in the bible as being the inspired word of God is what gives me my strength or(”arrogance”)as some of you call it. These are my beliefs as well as many, many other Christians. We are all called to preach the gospel. It’s not just for pastors. If you choose not to accept the message, that’s your business. God gives you that right. He doesn’t force Himself on anyone. It’s called free will. No man is “forcing” you into anything either. In fact you say it downright offends you. So when some government official, left wing group or activist judge says that I can’t have a bible on my desk,or pray, or I can’t include a scripture verse or Christian symbol on my artwork, or I can’t sing a Christian song, or I can’t use the name of Jesus in my graduation speech,or I can’t speak out in the public square, or I can’t hire who I want in my Christian business, That downright offends me too. You want us to leave you alone? Leave us alone! Why do you feel so threatened? We are not going to stop doing what God calls us to. We are not going to disobey the laws of God to satisfy the laws of man. We will continue to honor God our creator. If that is “arrogance” , so be it. I want to be able to stand before God on judgment day and have Him say “well done my good and faithful but arrogant servant” Nothing would make me happier.

Jax, I couldn’t agree more. My beliefs are right for me. I also have no interest in forcing my beliefs on others, and I am “passionate about protecting my right and the right of others to pursue the path of personal choice”.
Now if everyone would adopt that frame of mind we would not have the RR on the rampage they are on. I’m afraid the Dobson, Robertson, and apparently Gary Z crowd don’t see things that way. How sad.

and i’m free to sit in my pew{sheeple]listening to pastor Joe lead his flock in any direction that he feels that he is lead to. jax, perhaps we’re in agreement here!! h-m-m-perhaps not.

Jax and Elizabeth D-

Good point.

Gary Z-

I don’t think AU is against you doing any of those things (save the religious graduation speeches. (Though you can cite religion if you are one of the graduates.)) If your business is secular in nature, then it is true that there are non-discrimination clauses.

But you are actually in a business where you could get fired for NOT praying, singing songs, and speaking out in the public square.

As far as the teacher getting fired for having a bible on his desk, that is a silly reason to fire him. A better reason: the guy used high voltage lab equipment to literally *burn* crosses into the arms of several students. Yikes! This guy shouldn’t even be teaching Sunday school.

Actually, I don’t think this teacher actually got fired. It sounds like he is considering legal action against the school.

Gary Z says: “You want us to leave you alone? Leave us alone!..We are not going to disobey the laws of God to satisfy the laws of man.”

If you wish to be left alone, stop breaking the laws of this country. Stop expecting government to put your beliefs above the laws that govern all Americans. If you choose to continue to break the laws of this country, whatever your reason for doing so, you will be required to answer for it in a court of law. It’s that simple.

Jax says
If you wish to be left alone, stop breaking the laws of this country. Stop expecting government to put your beliefs above the laws that govern all Americans. If you choose to continue to break the laws of this country, whatever your reason for doing so, you will be required to answer for it in a court of law. It’s that simple.
Jax,
We are separate from state issues. We are the church. It’s what your organization is all about, is it not? Give it up.
It is fruitless.

Gary Z - have you completely lost your mind? You and the church are not above the law. The laws of the land apply to everyone, no matter what your religious affiliation. Do the crime, do the time.

Elizabeth,
Listen up because I am only going to say this one more time. It really is getting old.
I am not above the law unless, now listen closely, it goes against the law of God.
God expects us to follow the law.
No Christian is above the law, but do not expect us to contradict what God says!!! It will never happen. Not you or anyone else can stop God and His ultimate plans. They tried to kill Jesus and He beat death and hell. Do you really think that you or anyone else has the power to stop what will ultimately come to pass? Try as you may it will never happen. God cannot be silenced.
you can attack me all you want. It changes nothing. We are not breaking any laws.

Gary Z, once again, you are not above the law, period.
You are starting to sound like a raving lunatic. Calm down. If you don’t break any laws you have nothing to worry about. If you do, the laws of the land apply. No matter what you may have deluded yourself into thinking.
No one is attacking you. You are, however starting to sound paranoid.

Gary Z: “We are separate from state issues. We are the church. It’s what your organization is all about, is it not? Give it up. It is fruitless.”

Gary Z, churches are as bound to follow the law as individuals. Separation of church and state does not exempt churches from following the law. It basically prevents the government from telling its citizens how to practice their beliefs, if any. You can insist that you are beyond the laws of government, but the law disagrees. Those who have recently committed murders in the name of the Christian god (such as murderers of women’s medical clinics workers), received the same treatment as any other murderers. As I said, you can continue to act in defiance of the law for whatever reason, but it is unrealistic to expect the law to look the other way when you do so.

Gary Z, I think you misunderstood me. I never referred to you as arrogant. I was actually trying to say the opposite. Maybe I did not word it well. A few people on this blog (Matt) run out of things to say and just start calling names. Matt calls me “alternative #2” from the blog about the Birmingham Mayor, witch is his way of saying I am stupid. You were being called arrogant by Matt. I have not called anyone anything, or belittled anyone. I am just here to debate my side of the topic.

Well, Gary Z has a point. Historically, there have been some laws that should be disobeyed.

After the French revolution, Christianity was banned in France. Performing communion was a capital crime. But many priests did it anyway - and rightly so. It was a dumb law.

Laws against interracial marriage in the US were similarly so bogus as to warrant deliberate violation by pastors.

Most laws should be obeyed. Tax laws regarding churches are quite just and fair. There are plenty of ways of wading into politics at the pulpit without specifically violating the guidelines.

I think what Gary Z is trying to say is that as a Christian we have the laws of God, and the laws of man. The living word of God does want us to obey the laws of man, read 1 Peter 2:11-17. However, no matter what laws are put in place we will not stop worshiping God.

“Good Christians” ™ who decided they were obeying God’s law over man’s law:

James Kopp
Paul Hill
Eric Rudolph

Gary, where do you draw the line? I’ve seen a fair amount of “laws” in the Bible that would NOT be even remotely legal today (yes, many of us HAVE read that vulgar tome) - things like murdering your disobedient children and blasphemous sabbath-working neighbors.

Where will you draw the line between the two? Frankly, you sound like you won’t take much to become unhinged.