Comments for: “Bible Imbroglio: Texas Students Face Pressure To Take New Testaments”

This really is laughable.
If you don’t want a bible, just say “no thank you”
That’s really hard!

This really is laughable.
If you don’t want a bible just say”no thank you”.
That’s so hard!

RE: The lawsuit was brought by parents who said officials stopped them from handing out information that was critical of a district math program. “As long as some people have access to the distribution table, all people have access”

At least the criticism of a math program has some relevence to education. But even then this ruling, forcing the school to host a publicly available free-speach forum, seems pretty bogus.

I would say the court order needs revisiting - and in the mean time the Giddions should go out on the public sidewalk, where they can lurk without causing difficulties for students from minority religions.

Gary, saying “no thank you” is easy for an adult. It is harder for kids who are subject to peer-pressure and teasing.

Simple answer…end the public distribution of ANY material at school. If a group wishes to give out ANY information they can do outside, on the public sidewalk, or at a place of their choosing/expense, not in the school.

If Plano wants more religion in public schools, I say let ‘em have it. Just set up a table with free Satanic Bibles right next to Gideons, sit back and enjoy the fireworks! When the dust settles, the fundies and the school system will be crying their eyes out for separation.

RE: Just set up a table with free Satanic Bibles…

This is simular to the “backpack” issue - when the fundie parents got the school to include public information in the kid’s backpacks, they were unpleasently surprised when the local Wicans and some Secular Huminists started to use the privelege.

Best not to put kids between sectarian parents and other audults - get it out of the school and give everyone some peace.

There is another simularity - the FL state so called “Academic Freedom” statute. ACLU PA’s calls it a “litigation magnet.” If it is used by a teacher as a pretext for teaching religious philosophy in a science class, the school gets hit with a double-whammy - both the kid’s parents and the teacher could sue the school. What a mess.

Instead of playing legal games fighting over who gets to force whoes ideology on the kids, just let the parents direct their children’s religious education.

I think we should get rid of the public school system completely. That way parents can have complete control over what their children are being taught. This would eliminate the garbage that they are fed like the homosexual indoctrination, bogus sex education, evolution and so on. Who better to educate your own children than you.

Gary Z,

re: “homosexual indoctrination”

Please be clear and honest about what you are saying. The schools encourage acceptance only, you can’t make someone suddenly want to become homosexual. Teaching tolerance is not indoctrinating. You are upset that the students are no longer being tacitly or implicitly taught to hate and vilify gay students. There are a whole lot of real issues on the planet that are important and need attention, adults behaving in private, consenting, and harmless behavior is not one of them.

I was being completely honest. The homosexual issue was only one of the issues that I mentioned. The public schools are feeding our children garbage. Sex education should be taught in the home. Sexual issues, period, should be taught in the home. Since when should a school be passing out condoms to school kids? Teach a child evolution along side creationism and let the child make up his mind. When a school makes a comment that a parent loses their rights to their child when they drop them off at school, that’s baloney. They want them to be little robots who think exactly the way they think they should think.

GaryZ says:

“They want them to be little robots who think exactly the way they think they should think.”

The pot calling the kettle black!

GaryZ thinks everybody should be a robot and unquestioningly accept whatever is in the Bible as being absolute truth.

I’m saying that our children are better off being taught by their parents.

Teach a child evolution along side creationism and let the child make up his mind.
Evolution will take 59 mintues of an hour several times in a semester. Creationsim will take 2 seconds in the entire semester: “God did it.”

Unless you want every variation of creationism taught, that is. That would take a bit longer and provide a child with many more choices to make. Do you think Christianity holds a monopoly on creationism?

I’m saying that our children are better off being taught by their parents.

True, especially when it comes to religious beliefs. Evolution is science, not a religious belief.

Again you are pulling only one of my examples.
Our children would be better off educated by their parents.
The public school system is a big joke.

AU reported on a similar story in January. In that case, the Gideons were handing the bibles out in an unattended, closed classroom. (http://blog.au.org/2008/01/10/bible-battle-court-says-missionaries-dont-belong-in-mo-public-school/)

In this case, it seems as if they were in too public a place. Perhaps respecting the rights of parents to provide their children with religious texts of their choosing is the best solution.

A very troubling aspect of this article is the comment one Jewish boy made about taunting by Christian students: “…it was definitely a meaner comment than what we’re used to.” Apparently hearing anti-Semitic comments from their Christian schoolmates is something that Jewish children in Plano are “used to”.

I doubt that many kids will spend time reading their free bibles. This would be more about a public proclamation of faith than anything else. Nothing more than a distracting waste of time, paper and money.

Gary Z,

re: “Teach a child evolution along side creationism…”

Sure, if the class subject is ‘Primitive Cultures and Mythology” I am all for teaching creationism. It won’t fly in a science class.

I agree with Alan, the Gideons should be on the public sidewalk. When my daughter was in middle school, that’s where they were, on the sidewalk across the street from the school. Students who didn’t want to deal with them just didn’t use that side of the street during the week that the Gideons were there. Otherwise, get used to all religions handing out literature at the school. Sounds like this school district needs to re-think it’s policy. I’m betting they’re going to deal with a lot more than they anticipated before this is over!
Gary Z, as adamant as you are in your criticism of the public school system I do hope you are homeschooling your children.

RE: I’m saying that our children are better off being taught by their parents.

Sure, and everyone should fix their own car, grow their own food, build their own house, generate their own electricity, etc. etc.

Most parents, the vast majority, are not interested in doing a DYI on thier kids. Nor would they be very good at it, especially given the complexities of modern science, mathematics and science.

GaryZ, I think you should grow up and get real. Parents take education seriously, and you should also. Stop making a fool of yourself.

GaryZ says:

“The public school system is a big joke.”

That is of course your opinion. Whether your opinion should be regarded as having any credibility is another matter.

Gary,
Anyone is allowed to home school their children. So, go ahead and homeschool yours. Public schools are for everyone else and all should be treated equally.

Sex education is about more than “handing out condoms,” Gary Z. There are waaaay too many parents who become squeamish over discussing these things, and there are too many who only learn things (that their parents SHOULD have taught) after the fact. A child who is unable to discuss these matters with parents, are even less likely to discuss these matters with the family physicians. They’re left to learn it on their own, from their peers, or some other equally mis-informed person. That can prove detrimental.

There are aspects of sex that are public health issues, and therefore it is a subject that requires straightforward, accurate information.

Jax, I picked up on that comment by the Jewish student, too. Thanks for pointing it out. “…it was definitely a meaner comment than what we’re used to.” Absolutely disgusting.

Judge to Tangi schools: Gideon Bibles out of school
4/22/2008, 5:05 p.m. CDT
The Associated Press

NEW ORLEANS (AP) — A federal judge says the Tangipahoa Parish school system must stop in-school Bible giveaways.

District Judge Carl Barbier ruled Tuesday that allowing The Gideons International to give Bibles to students amounts to promoting Christianity by the school board.

He says that violates the First Amendment’s separation of church and state.

The school board’s attorney was not immediately available for comment.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Louisiana filed the suit for a family whose fifth-grade daughter said she felt pressured into taking a Bible.

Executive director Marjorie Esman says the ACLU of Louisiana could not find a case where any U.S. judge had held that Bibles could be given out in school.
© 2008 Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.

The Equal Access Act, which says we should treat religious groups the same as any other group, was a horrible law that disemboweled the separation of church and state. Religious groups should be treated differently than the chess club and other secular groups. The Constitution requires a separation of church and state, not a separation of chess club and state.

Matt #1

Sanctimonious Theocrat (GaryZ) wants public schools to teach that homosexuality is an evil abomination (whether he admits it or not). Others want public schools to spend time teaching kids that Jenny has 3 mommies and a brother that cross-dresses.

There’s a third option: Stick to English, math, science, history, and other basics.

Actually, Matt (#2?) part of “basics” is respect for others. That includes Jenny, her 3 mommies, and her brother that cross-dresses…unless you have a bunch of automatons whose heads simply open up every day and your designated instructor pours stuff in and the automatons never speak.

Gary Z, the sanctimonious theocrat, seems to be advocating that public schools be abolished.

I don’t think teaching about homosexuality (for or against) is a “basic.” On that, we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Yep, Gary wants public schools abolished, but only because they won’t teach what he wants them to teach.

Matt #1 (forgot to add that last time around)

Thanks, Matt #1, for the clarification. I believe that one of the biggest misconceptions about homosexuality in the public schools, is that there is some attempt to “teach” it. I personally think it’s more about understanding that everyone is an individual; that one’s sexual preferences don’t make them “better” targets for another’s abuses.

Certainly, schools may be unsuccessful in changing bigotry and hatred, especially when kids come from that mindset in their own homes, but lines have to be drawn, and schools cannot “turn the other cheek” when kids are tormented by others, whether its torment because of homosexuality, or because of any other perceived difference.

I agree that Sex Ed probably can’t be considered one of the basics yet this stuff is pretty important. Our school district incorporates all the Sex Ed stuff into required Health classes. I always shake my head in bewilderment when I hear complaints about the whole Sex Ed stuff. The classes are far more comprehensive than just putting condoms on bananas. They cover healthful practices in terms of diet, exercise, drugs, alcohol and tobacco use. They get all the sex stuff too but since I want my kids to have unclogged arteries, no STDs and no kids until after college, I am really quite ok with any and all health related information.

I see all information as neutral and so I guess I will never understand why some people see information as dangerous.

Jimmy has the right idea. The seeds of which are in the article. Hand out texts from EVERY religion.

They’ve got the Bible.
Bring in the Koran, Rig Veda, Kama Sutra (illustrated of course), Dianetics, Book of Mormon, Satanic Bible, Principia Discordia, and anything else you can think of.

Fight Fire with Fire! Doesn’t anyone listen to Metallica anymore?

“I’m saying that our children are better off being taught by their parents”.

That’s a silly generalization. Some parents would be great teachers, some would be horrible. Also, interesting that GaryZ wrote the above-quoted sentence in the context of advocating for the abolishment of the public school system. Not only do you think children would be “better off” being taught by their parents, but he wants to eliminate any choice that mom and dad have in the matter in the first plass. This is the equivalent of saying that junk food should not be made available to people because they should be eating only fruit and vegetables instead.

In my post, the “you” in the sentence starting with “Not only do you…” was referring to GaryZ.

OK, cool. Lots of good discussion. I think that’s what’s ultimately healthy at this point in our country. I’m glad for it. Especially between people with opposing views.
I would submit the following…
“Religion” is always applied to churches and organized religion… and, fairly, that’s pretty much the way it is defined. BUT, realistically, everyone has a religion, which is their world view and personal system of beliefs. Even if a person is a Christian or Buddhist or Muslim, they are going to have their own “bent” or personal interpretations of their faith. And any atheist is going to have a set of perspectives on life by which they direct themselves.
From this viewpoint, we are all spending our lives testing our beliefs. And it’s more than our stated beliefs, because those don’t always coincide with the way we really live our lives. So, there can be Christians who find parallels to their faith in Buddhism, Islam or Judaism. And there might be atheists who understand the motivations and yearnings of people of faith.
It seems the more we talk about it, the more we understand each others’ perspectives. And the more we understand each other, the less space there is between us. Perhaps in many cases we are after the same things. Inclusion, being accepted. Being heard and being interested in hearing others. Cooperating to provide for each other.
These discussions are difficult! But fruitful…

“It seems the more we talk about it, the more we understand each others’ perspectives. And the more we understand each other, the less space there is between us. Perhaps in many cases we are after the same things. Inclusion, being accepted. Being heard and being interested in hearing others. Cooperating to provide for each other.
These discussions are difficult! But fruitful…”

A lovely thought, except that there are mainstream faiths in the U.S. whose doctrine require that they convert others to the church. The members are taught that their faith is the one “true” faith and the only access to salvation. They are not interested in learning about or tolerating other religions. To protect the freedom of all, including the freedom to not believe, public schools must make sure that religion is only a objective classroom topic (difficult in K-12 settings) and taught without bias. In addition, a strong policy against harassment of any kind, including religious, must be adopted and enforced.

This is not the first time the Gideons have come up. Can anyone sue them, instead of the school districts? They have decided that they are above US law.

Gary Z-

I am curious. What exactly do you think the public schools are doing with respect to homosexuality that you find so offensive?

The Gideons, other than being pretty agressive, are only going as far as the school district allows them. It is the school district that would have to be sued.

In this case the school district seems to be in a bind because they are under a court order to set up and maintain a “free speach area” due to some controversy over a math ciriculum. This may be a pretext, but it may be a legitimate concern on their part.

In any case, requiring a school to set up and maintain a “free speach area” is outside of their mission and entangles them with issues and controversies that distract from education. They ought to seek relief from this requirement, or have a student sue to get rid of it.

I, too, picked up on the student’s remark that comments directed at Jewish students were meaner than usual. Seems to me that there is not enough tolerance being taught. It certainly isn’t getting taught at home.

As for educating my child myself, I am a working single parent. I am intelligent, but not qualified to provide my child the fully rounded education she deserves. I prefer to send her to public school where she will be taught advanced math and science, English, real history, foreign language, SEX ED, and tolerance–all reinforced from home.

It is my opinion that Gary Z is not advocating that all parents homeschool their children, but rather is advocating that all Christian parents remove their children from the public schools.

I am near certain he is parroting the mantra of The Exodus Mandate Project. The following link details a new book by Rev. Albert Moehler, and an “exit strategy.”
http://www.exodusmandate.org/a.....s-book.htm
Please look at the home page of this group. The fantastical tales, exaggeration, and outright fabrications that they use to “scare” the flock into removing their kids is absolutely incredible.

10 - 15 years ago, the SBC considered Ray Moore’s “mandate” unfeasible, and therefore year after year refused to endorse the plan. It appears, the SBC now does endorse the plan.

Not too long ago, “the head of Christian Educators Association International, which represents devout teachers in public and private schools, urges parents to reflect carefully on their choices. “One size does not fit all,” *says* *Finn* *Laursen*, arguing that public, private and at-home
education all might be good options.

“Don’t just hammer public schools,” *Laursen* said. “Go in there and
*take* *them* *back*.”

I like the idea of being sure to place “other” religious books next to Gideon’s Bibles, but think it really only exacerbates the problem. Kids should not be used as pawns in this way at all.

Matt (#1) says: “I see all information as neutral and so I guess I will never understand why some people see information as dangerous.”

Matt, I agree wholeheartedly about the neutrality of information. I think many people give more weight to their knee-jerk reactions than to reasoned thought - something akin to “this information makes me feel bad so it must be bad”.

This is a little dated, but it is funny how Christians will support separation of shurch and state when they think something opposes their principles.

In 2002, in Aspen, CO, a public school teacher proposed yoga instruction. She removed all spiritual or religious references, but “Christian fundamentalists and even some secular parents lobbied the school board. They argued that yoga’s Hindu roots conflicted with Christian teachings and that using it in school might violate the separation of church and state.”

Alba, funny thing about that yoga–it’s actually very good for you, with or without the spiritual aspect. I’ve never delved into the religious aspect of it and have received great benefit from practicing it. Just don’t play the video’s in reverse or you’ll get a Satanic message. Just kidding–maybe>:>

No one should be surprised that, in light of this, and for all practical purposes, the Southern Baptist Convention is the de facto established church and Christianity is the de facto established religion of the state of Texas, especially where public education is concerned.

In an outrageous 1908 decision, the Texas Supreme Court in Church v. Bullock, not only declared mandatory school prayer and Bible reading constitutional in the state’s public schools, it denied minority students even the right to be excused from the classroom during these religious exercises and also stated that Christianity was part of the “web & woof” of state government, and to forbid mandated religious exercises in school or the public square would “create a condition bordering on moral anarchy.”

This, along with countless other instances like this one, affirms to me that Texas has long fostered a culture of religious coercion instead of religious liberty and freedom of conscience.

I have no doubt that if the State of Texas were to secede from the United States and became an independent Republic, it would forthrightly declare itself a Christian Nation, hostile to all non-Christians, athiests and “heathens,” with a Religious Right government.

Yee haw! Perhaps we should encourage Texas to do just that. It would make for one hoot of a reality show! (Yes, I’m being sarcastic. Well, I think I’m being sarcastic.)

After they give Mexico back what was theirs, they’d be a wee, bitty nation. It would make an interesting reality show, Elizabeth!

I don’t see what is so bad about offering free Bibles in school if the kids want one get one, if not then don’t. They can put them next to the free condoms and pamphlets on sex education. I am sure that the condoms and sex info have never caused any embarrassment or teasing among students.

Karl says “Evolution will take 59 minutes of an hour several times in a semester. Creationism will take 2 seconds in the entire semester: “God did it.””
That is not true in the least bit. All the science remains. The cell still has the same parts, the elements in chemistry remain the same, and all the information is still there to be learned. Creationism or “intelligent design” just has fewer holes in its logic. Evolution and Darwinism has so many flaws it, and is based on as many lies as truths.

RE: I don’t see what is so bad about offering free Bibles in school if the kids want one get one, if not then don’t.

Bart, read the article. Some of the Jewish kids are being dis’ed. Ain’t right.

If the Gideons go out on the public sidewalk, there isn’t an issue. For the sake of the kids, that is what they should do.

Since you had questions about the standing of seperation of church and state in a previous discussion, you might want to check out Liberty of Conscience by Martha C. Nussbaum. She approaches religious freedom and seperation of church and state as an equality issue. It has a good deal of history and law, but what I like is that she is a very competent philosopher.

Albatross wrote: schools cannot “turn the other cheek” when kids are tormented by others

I agree. Students who torment others should be punished.

Sky wrote: I agree that Sex Ed probably can’t be considered one of the basics

If you’re agreeing with me, just note that I wasn’t commenting on sex ed (contraceptives, STDs, etc.) I was talking about the topic of homosexuality.

Jax wrote: Matt (#1) says: “I see all information as neutral and so I guess I will never understand why some people see information as dangerous.”

For the record, Sky said that, not me.

Richard wrote: I have no doubt that if the State of Texas were to secede from the United States and became an independent Republic, it would forthrightly declare itself a Christian Nation,

The Texas Republican party has already done that: http://blog.au.org/2004/06/15/texas_christian/

Matt #1

Bart says: “Creationism or “intelligent design” just has fewer holes in its logic.”

Give it up, Bart. Creationism is all holes and no logic. It presents no evidence and no testable hypotheses. It is not science, and probably never will qualify as science. Creationism is mythology, and the “Wedge Strategy” has proven itself to be a failure.

Bart says:

Creationism or “intelligent design” just has fewer holes in its logic. Evolution and Darwinism has so many flaws it, and is based on as many lies as truths.

Yes, “Intelligent design” has fewer holes in its logic because it is all one big flaw, completely void of science and truth. Please provide one example of a lie presented as truth regarding evolution. You have to demonstrate that it is an outright lie, not a difference in opinion.

The “flaws” of evolution you mention merely describe places where data is lacking or incomplete. Only further research and study will explain those anomolies. Science, unlike religious dogma, is self-correcting: When sufficient evidence is gathered which disputes a previous conclusion, the conclusion will be updated to reflect what the data shows.

Intelligent design, in contrast, starts with an a prirori conclusion and goes in search of data to support the conclusion.

In order for intelligent design to be considered as science, proponents have to publish papers which can be reviewed by peers. To date, ID proponents have been unable to provide scientific evidence to support their view.

“I have no doubt that if the State of Texas were to secede from the United States and became an independent Republic, it would forthrightly declare itself a Christian Nation, hostile to all non-Christians, athiests and “heathens,” with a Religious Right government.”

When Texas did secede from Mexico it did not declare itself a Christian nation in any official sense. And it did offer religious freedom for all citizens; unlike in Mexico, where Roman Catholicism was officially favored. So fie on that idea.
It may be true that, if a similar independent nation status became reality today, that its constitution may have a statement recognizing a Christian majority to justify mottos, monuments, or even the song, “Texas, Our Texas.” But no way would it be law to either join evangelicalism or protestantism– or even to believe in one god– or else leave.

“(Yes, I’m being sarcastic. Well, I think I’m being sarcastic.)”

I think you are, too, but I’m not positive.

“After they give Mexico back what was theirs, they’d be a wee, bitty nation.

And what would be “theirs?” The land itself? which Mexico ’stole’ from Spain? which stole it from the plains Indians and some from France?, either of whom stole it from villaging Indians?…………

Anyone who doesn’t think “might makes (a) right,” doesn’t see history in realities. Violent conquest is what makes boundaries and sovereign countries what they are today.

I believe that setting up tables is exactly what we should do.if they can hand out Christian Bibles people should be able to hand out the Koran,Thomas Paine’s the age of reason, which espouses Deism, the secular humanist manifesto, etc. etc. There’s a case before the Supreme Court, which requests that the seven amorphisms be put up next to a Bible monument.this more than anything else will put a stop to this nonsense. I believe that most governments, entities will put a stop to this tower of Babel.

If the Jesus-cultists are going to pass out their version of Dianetics, everyone else may as well get in on the action. I worry about the impact on the spines of these poor children. Thirty of forty spiritual manifestos in one backpack tends to weigh a bit. Best have a voucher program to get each kid a fork lift so they can tote their spiritual guides with them wherever they go.

Said 16-year-old Vines High School sophomore Jeffrey Lavine, “Probably the one I heard the most was, ‘If the Bible touched you, like, will you burn or something?’ I sort of played it down as a joke and everything, which it was, but it was definitely a meaner comment than what we’re used to.”

That is considered mean in this country?
I would love it if this were the extreme on my campus.
At our tax supported school in California homosexual acts of affection are more tolerated than heterosexual acts of affection.
Discipline is low. Tolerance is high. The indoctranation that my tax dollars are paying for is not only unproductive; it’s truly frightning.
Most of the girls are well versed in avoiding pregnancy, but the hurt and anger and damage that evolves from passing each other around has created an unhealthy atmosphere. It’s tough to teach or learn in in such an ultra-free environment.
Our students know their rights as they are currently defined, but many of the seniors cannot pass the exit exam which consists of mostly 6th grade level skills.
I wonder if these are the freedoms that our vets have died for for the past two centuries?
‘If the Bible touched you, like, will you burn or something?’
This statement sounds a bit immature, but if this is considered “definately” meaner than what Texas students are used to hearing I would be scared to greet the average Texas student for fear of offending them.
If that was the most vile quote that the watchdog could come up with it seems like a stretch to me.
Sounds to me like they could be a bit more tolerant.

To Keith:

Students being mean to other students because they are Jewish? Where do you think they learn that? Why would one student care if another one read the bible or not? Harassment of another because of religious belief is a learned behavior; what starts in school becomes entrenched in adulthood, and can be used to discriminate against any religious minority. Someone (parents? pastors?) is giving Christian students the message that Jews are somehow defective and must be changed. What a dangerous notion-remember where this lead in the past?

Not all Christian groups do this. I work at a church-owned school, where students of many faiths, including faiths outside of Christianity and no faith at all, are welcome and respected. (and not expected to convert) They are taught about all religious faiths and taught to respect and value everyone, in spite of being owned and operated by the church (in fact, the head of school is a clergyperson). The church provides a platform for the philosophy and integrity of the school, but any religious tradition can provide this.

The only people who could support such actions in a public school must truly believe that Christianity is superior and students must be converted for their own good.

KL says:

“To protect the freedom of all, including the freedom to not believe, public schools must make sure that religion is only a objective classroom topic (difficult in K-12 settings) and taught without bias.”

No, KL. To protect the freedom of all, we must leave religion to the churches. It is not the responsibility of our taxpayer-supported public schools to teach religion, to supplement religious teaching or to sponsor – or simply facilitate – religious activities.

I wonder how the evangelicals would feel if I were to show up at their church on Sunday morning with a stack of science textbooks, ready to conduct an academic class on their time. I’d wager that they’d not be happy.

The best policy is complete separation of church and state.

Agreed, MC; I forgot to say that there is no way to guarantee that such a course would be truly unbiased at the K-12 level. Hence, the only way to protect the freedoms is to leave it out.

My school respects diversity because it is consistent with its mission and it’s good business. Shift toward demanding one set of beliefs and we lose students of other faiths. Public schools must serve everyone, hence must preserve the freedoms of all.

I’m always glad to hear stories about Christians and Christian schools doing good and reasonable things.

Religion shouldn’t be a taboo topic in public schools. It’s hard to understand anything about European history without some understanding of Christianity. But this can be easily taught in an objective manner - and usually is.

Matt #1, just read your link. Not surprised that something like that would come out of Texas. Having spent some time there I learned that they already consider themselves different and somehow detached from the rest of the country, and free to have a different, separate set of rules. I can’t count the number of times I was told “This is Texas. We do things a little different down here.”
Sky, it would indeed require heavy equipment if students were to carry tomes from each religion. Here’s a thought - let’s leave religion at home where it belongs. If parents desire their children to carry the book of their religion to services, that can be handled in the home. Religious groups should not be on public school campuses. Students should not be made to feel uncomfortable because of their beliefs.

Keith says: “At our tax supported school in California homosexual acts of affection are more tolerated than heterosexual acts of affection.”
Or, this is what some pay attention to, and then react.

“Discipline is low. Tolerance is high.”
Sounds like you need some authoritarian preacher people to enforce discipline. Or is that how you see things? Tolerance = lack of disciple?
“The indoctranation[sic] that my tax dollars are paying for is not only unproductive; it’s truly frightning.”
Teaching tolerance = indoctrination? Unproductive? Frightening? And so, to soothe your feelings, we should teach Christianity as the one true religion.

“Most of the girls are well versed in avoiding pregnancy, but the hurt and anger and damage that evolves from passing each other around has created an unhealthy atmosphere.” Who are they being passed around to? Un-versed boys? Sounds like a line out of an ab-only program: “Girls should dress modestly so as not to invite the lustful thoughts of boys.”

I wonder if these are the freedoms that our vets have died for for the past two centuries?
Our vets died, and continue to die, for the freedoms of the people. All of the people, not just the Jesus followers. (Although, what they are truly fighting for is highly dependent on whose war they are fighting at the time.)

‘If the Bible touched you, like, will you burn or something?’
This statement sounds a bit immature, but if this is considered “definately” meaner than what Texas students are used to hearing I would be scared to greet the average Texas student for fear of offending them.”
Wonder what they’d feel free enough to say to the Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu student? Wonder what they’d say if the Koran was sitting on that there table. Would they be afraid of burning, if they (the Christian) touched it?

“Sounds to me like they could be a bit more tolerant.”
Ya think? Or maybe, if they left the Bible out of the schools, as they should, they wouldn’t have to “worry about” the Jew, the Hindu, the Muslim, or any others who didn’t want one. Then we’d only have to worry about the intolerant parents of the intolerant children.

KL, good comment, and thank you.

Sky, I’ve been wondering why they made those backpacks with wheels. Now it’s clear - to save the spines of the children lugging all those holy books around!

Keith
I think you’re kind of an idiot, but I have to agree that book burn comment didn’t come off as mean spirited to me either.

Keith,
Apparently I can’t call you names, but I did ultimately agree with you that the book burn comment didn’t come off as mean spirited to me either.

Albatross - why do you suppose some people are so afraid of being tolerant? Do they think that tolerance equals endorsement, and if they tolerate what they have been taught is evil they will go to hell?

Elizabeth D, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, at least partially. I believe it was Pat Robertson who said something to the effect that being “nice” to people of other faiths is like being nice to the antichrist. I think there is a real fear present in RR mindsets – which, to me, indicates how much doubt they really have about their faith – that exposure to others will somehow lead them away from their faith. (In other words, they might be exposed to rational thought! The horror!)

RR types are so engulfed in their self-righteousness that they firmly believe theirs is the only way, that only those who follow their way are entitled to rights, and all others should just accept it. Many of them are literally incapable of entertaining any doubts whatsoever. They won’t tell you that they believe; they’ll tell you that they know.

Jax, when you said “Many of them are literally incapable of entertaining any doubts whatsoever.” you took me back to my high school years. My adoptive parents were hardcore evangelical fundies, and when I started questioning their beliefs they were not only horrified, but many times (most of the time) at a loss for explanations. They had never questioned what they had been taught, and they weren’t prepared for me to question what I was being taught. The only piece of advice or explanation they ever offered for anything was “Pray about it.” I realized even back then that they didn’t have a clue as to why they believed what they believed, but they weren’t about to question anything because they were afraid of what might happen if they did. It was easier to just go along with the church’s agenda. When the followers are afraid to question those in a position of leadership the leaders can be just as arrogant and greedy as they want to be, knowing that they will get away with it. If the heaven myth turns out to be true it sure would be amusing to listen to some of these fundy leaders explain their actions, yes?

GaryZ, do the rest of us a favor and homeschool your children. With the xenophobe crackdown on immigrants (legal or otherwise), we’ll need a domestic supply of uneducated manual laborers to replace them.

All this blather about the Gideons leaves me with some questions: Don’t any of the parents have a Bible at home? Why do the Gideons need to harrass children at school? Why don’t the Gideons pass out their propaganda in the temple of Mammon - the shopping malls?

The ignorant comments about “homosexual indoctrination” (whatever that is), “bogus sex education” (so they don’t get pregnant or STDs?), and evolution (which is FACT) just illustrate the theocratic desire to keep us in the Dark Ages.

ANIMAL - I presume that both you and Keith are adults. Now, for a moment, pretend you’re a child. Then ask yourself if you’d feel different, or apart, if the kid you’re walking with in school made a comment like that to you. The only thing kids want is to be liked, and to fit in. With age and maturity, we become able to not really give a care what another person thinks.

Then ask yourself why the Gideon’s choose the schools for their Bible giveaways, rather than the sidewalk outside of a bank. It’s called subtle coercion in a compulsory environment.

Elizabeth, I do think some people think tolerance means endorsement. That is why the RR has to create fairytales and falsehoods to sell to the flock. Create the impression that the gay relationship is a threat to their own marriage. Not only does it show an insecurity in their faith, but it makes me question their marriages, as well. I have never been able to fathom how the gay relationship of my neighbors (hypothetical) could possibly undermine my marriage.

Albatross,
Certainly no one wants to be made to feel different, however I fail to see the “book burn” comment as meriting the attention it got from AU. It didn’t constitute a hate crime in any sense. It didn’t even take a hateful tone.
Handing out Bibles has never been against the law anywhere in America in our entire history. It still isn’t.
For many years before and after the establishment of our Constitution the Bible was in the private and public school class room in full use. (Yes I know that public schools didn’t exist until after the constitution.) Had it been a significant issue it would have been challenged in the late 1700’s on a significant scale. It simply wasn’t, which is a clear reflection of our founders’ intentions. (Or lack of intentions)
Which of our declaration, or constitutional signers stood against the use of the Bible anywhere? Congress has been opening with prayer since the beginning of our nation, and I’m pretty sure that most, if not all, of our presidents have been sworn in on the Bible.
I keep hearing people say that the Bible has no place in government. How do you get more governmental than congress and the swearing in of our nations leader?
Based on documented precedent I would contend that constitutional interpretation was clearly different for the first 175 years than it has been for the past 50.
There are many pressures that students face. If those students in Texas are being harassed, over time, it is certainly their right to take action. It is just as appropriate for them to be tolerant of an immature remark as any other group in our country would expect to be tolerated.
It’s ok for people to be uncomfortable in this country. The freedom that each of us has pretty much dictates we will make each other uncomfortable at some point.
Which person who reads or responds on this site does so because they’re comfortable?
It is curious to me why AU reports on legal actions as if they were illegal.

No establishment of religion. I don’t see anything in the constitution that makes Christianity an exception to the rule.

There is little force in the argument “well, it was done before for a while so it must be ok.”

Keith, handing out bibles is not against the law, endorsing religion on a public school campus is unconstitutional. Students should never have to make the decision to take a bible or not because they (the Gideons and their bibles) shouldn’t be there.
If students in Texas or anywhere else are being harassed the time to take action is now, not “over time”.
Just because something has always been done the same way doesn’t make it right.

Keith says: “…however I fail to see the “book burn” comment as meriting the attention it got from AU.”

“It is just as appropriate for them to be tolerant of an immature remark as any other group in our country would expect to be tolerated.”

Keith, the “book burn” comment got a mention in the article. It was given attention by the bloggers here because many of us are concerned about the presence of anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in America. Some of us see the comment as deserving a stronger description than merely “immature”, since the mindset that generated it was presumably learned at home from anti-Semitic parents.

There is no “appropriate” reason for anyone to tolerate anti-Semitism or bigotry of any kind.

Jax,
You’ve probably noticed that I have kind of mob rule approach, but I have to admit that I couldn’t find any anti-semitic language or tone. There didn’t seem to be anything in the article to indicate that the “book burn” commenter knew the religious orientation of the student they were talking to.
Is there some sort of belief that Bibles will burn Jews?
If not, then the comment hardly qualifies as anti-semitic or bigoted in any sense.

“Had it been a significant issue it would have been challenged in the late 1700’s on a significant scale. It simply wasn’t, which is a clear reflection of our founders’ intentions. (Or lack of intentions)”

Oh, you mean like SLAVERY?

Give me a break.

RE: The “book burn”. It didn’t constitute a hate crime in any sense. It didn’t even take a hateful tone.

I don’t think anyone characterized the remark as a crime, let alone a hate crime. It was disrespectful, uncivil, and rude. Not that I am without sin, but making fun of someone for their religious beliefs can be very cruel and hurtful. Especially for kids.

It is sometimes easy to dismiss remarks like this as not causing “real harm”. However, a failure of respect is like an insult, a slap; and moreover, it is the same “slap in the face” that a noble gives to his powerless vassal in order to put him in his place. It expresses superiority of rank over an inferior in the social hierarchy.

In a democracy, this is wrong. Especially in the public schools we are all supposed to be treated with dignity and respect - we should all feel that we belong and that we are equals.

Jax,
I didn’t see an anti-semetic, or even a bigoted flavor in the “book burn” comment. Is there some sort of inuendo in that statement that I’m not aware of? I have tried to look at it through it through the eyes of the offended student, and the best I can come up with is the Bible passer used poor judgement in making the remark and offended someone. Had the comment been made in relationship to handing out condoms, or an invitation to a seance, or anything else, we wouldn’t even be hearing about this. Just as many people would be offended, but the response would be more like, “you need to learn to deal with stuff like that. Don’t be too over sensitive”.
Did the offensive student even know the other student was jewish?
I’ve never met a Christian who is anti-semetic. They may exist, but that would be an exception. The general Christian population in America has traditionally believed in an alliance with Israel, so at the very least the offensive comment being a result of anti-semetic training would be in conflict with a long standing trend.

Elizabeth,
The government is not allowed to to establish a state religion.
Gideons passing out Bibles on public grounds is not unconstitutional. It doesn’t constitute the establishment of a state religion in any form.
There is no government entity endorsing this action any more than it would endorse a sexually explicit parade on San Franciscos publically funded main streets.
Both activities deeply offend different groups, but neither is endorsed by the government.

Alan,
I feel that many people including AU want to make this much more than it really is.
The story only leaves us in a position to make assumptions about the offending student.
It has made for much passionate internet debate, but I see no evidence that there is an honest attempt to confirm the facts with the other party. By not using names, at least AU can avoid a slander suit. On the other hand it is certainly the type of journalism that none of us would want to be on the wrong side of.
There is zero religious interference in the public school that I teach in. There is a high level of disrespect by students towards authority, and each other. It is their constitutional right, under current constitutional interpretation, and freedom of speech, that no one has the right to mandate the attitudes of Americans of any age. Our students take these privileges very seriously.
As far as democracy being a license for us to feel equal to one another I have to disagree. While we are all created equal, it isn’t very long before a distinct separation begins to occur. It is our democratic ability to seek happiness that guarantees that we won’t remain equal in any real sense. The great thing about our country’s frame work is that we have the right to try.
We have the right to be who we are even if others disapprove. If we feel less than equal we are giving our power away.
Socialism was the answer to true equality: it failed. Democracy doesn’t even make that claim. I don’t feel equal to those in my field who have accomplished more. While most of those individuals don’t offend me with their position, there are a few who make an effort to rub their position in my face. Does it make me feel good? Of course not, but there will always be a few clods in every profession and every religion that just don’t get it. These are more individual issues than group or religious.

Can someone explain why my last post would merit moderation?
I can’t find one AU commenting policy that I have violated.
My opinion is consistently different than every AU writer, but I don’t see that as a conflict in AU’s own policy.
Are my opinions irrelevant, or just in opposition to this sites majority?

Probably an automatic filter. There’s no way someone at AU sits at his desk all day waiting to read posts as soon as they are made.

If, when you obtained a driver’s license at the MVA, you also were given a pamphlet wholly dedicated to Islam (or Hinduism, Christianity, atheism, whatever), would you think that is government endorsement?

I think Lowells slavery reference was right on. If the founders were against slavery they would have addressed it during the constitutional convention when they had the chance.
Of course it was Lincoln who started the civil war, and the Ku Klux Klan emerged as a result.(saw it on the history channel!)
The south is still mad.
So Lowell, what you’re saying is that not everything that was contraversial was covered in the constitution right?

Keith, “There is no government entity endorsing this action” The Gideons were on the campus of a public school, the school administration allowed them to be there, the endorsement is implied.

Lowell,
Slavery was addressed, but put on the back burner. I believe it was the stated intention of our framers that it (slavery) be resolved in about a 50 year time period. It took a bit longer, and still hasn’t been satisfactorily resolved for many.

Keith, if you use the word social and suffix ism together it sometimes trips the moderation flag.

Elizabeth,
It can’t be said that administrations are bound because of law, and they are endorsing it at the same time. That’s simply creating something that’s not there.
There are no laws stating, or implying a mandatory religion in this country. Our country is not in any danger of that happening. I would be willing to state that these United States of America have never been further from that possibility.

Alan,
Thanks. How did you discover that?

Keith, have you ever heard the expression “second class citizen”? Or “equality before the law”? Or “equal before God”? A democracy has failed if it relegates some citizens to second class status or does not recognize that we are all equal before the law.

This has nothing to do with weather or not we all are capable of running a four minute mile or earning a six-figure income. Please do not confuse that sense of equality with political equality.

I know I’m going to start sounding like a broken record with my latest book recommendation, but I think you should take a look at Liberty of Conscience by Martha C. Nussbaum. She approaches religious freedom and separation of church and state as an equality issue, and explains what is meant by equality in this context.

Dave C,
I wouldn’t think it was government endorsement, simply because I’m aware that there is no endorsement. However, if it was offensive to me, and I felt threatened or harassed in some way, then I would have the freedom to address it in a civil way.
I guess I could call AU if I couldn’t face it on my own.

Alan, Thanks. How did you discover that?

I’m a scientist. I conducted a few experiments.

Alan,
I’ll have to try to take a look at the book.
I personally don’t feel politically equal.
Often when interviewing for a job there is a visible cooling off by the interviewer when they discover I last taught at a Christian school. This doesn’t happen every time, but it is becoming more common.
Then again we’re not guaranteed political equality, only the right to pursue happiness. Our framers didn’t know everything, but something extremely special has grown out of their effort. Who can tell me what other civilization they would prefer over the one we have?
I can’t imagine that there will ever be political equality any where in the future. Human nature will sabotage that possibility every time. This may be as close as this world has ever come. What are the elements that have made it successful here? I think checks, balances, and the right to disagree.
I haven’t gotten to where I want to be, but I recon I’ll keep pursuing. In the mean time I’ve gotta go build something for my wife. Women are the ones with the real power!
I’ll check back in on you all later.

Animal, Keith, I stand corrected. There was nothing specific about the “book burn” comment itself to prove that it was anti-Semitic. The Jewish boy’s remarks imply that he and others have been otherwise disrespected for being non-Christian. I can’t literally call that anti-Semitism either; however it does seem to imply religious bigotry of some kind. Perhaps those of use who grew up with kids of all faiths have a harder time understanding such behavior than others.

Keith, I’m a little confused as to why you equate “politically equal” to your work, and the fact that you worked in a Christian school.

“In the mean time I’ve gotta go build something for my wife. Women are the ones with the real power!” Not true, but Amen, anyway!

Jax, I couldn’t agree more with the difficulty in understanding (or accepting) religious intolerance.

I didn’t grow up in that kind of environment and see nothing good in the attitude of negativity.

Keith, If you are being discriminated against in employement based on your religious beliefs, then you have experienced the inequality I am refering to, and that isn’t right. You should be judged by your ability to teach and not by your religious beliefs. You shouldn’t be treated as a second class citizen.